Road, Rail & Access Issues

[Len Fish]

Leeds is the 3rd largest stand alone city in terms of inner suburb sprawl and cc, the 2nd finacial centre of england and the economic powerhouse of yorkshire!
But you just cant get in or out of it because transports s***!!
But i agree imagine if we had an andy burnham here, wow!

And the largest city in Europe without a rapid transit system.

 

[YorkshireLad]

Speaking following today’s announcement, Mayor of West Yorkshire Tracy Brabin described the scrapping of the Northern Leg of HS2 as “yet another betrayal of the North.”​

I feel like it would make more sense to mention the Leeds leg of the route. But oh wait, this is Leeds, why should it matter?

 

[LBAYORKIE]

I feel like it would make more sense to mention the Leeds leg of the route. But oh wait, this is Leeds, why should it matter?

Funny how, when Manchesters leg of HS2 is scrubbed it's a mortal blow to the North and 'levelling up' which justifies days and weeks of protest and condemnation, yet when the Leeds leg was cancelled it's was all over in a couple of days.

 

[LBA4EVER]

Must admit though its been a big kick in the teeth for mancs today but a good day for Leeds if we get supertram, a big IF though!

 

[Len Fish]

I can remember as a kid the old trams absolutely belting down from Roundhay Park with an enthusiastic driver, until a fuse blew with an almighty bang and they ground to a halt. Those were the days, bring them back!

 

[The Pole]

Tracy Bread bin currently on Breakfast.

 

[Coathanger16]

Speaking following today’s announcement, Mayor of West Yorkshire Tracy Brabin described the scrapping of the Northern Leg of HS2 as “yet another betrayal of the North.”​

Seriously, how did this woman think West Yorkshire would benefit from continuing HS2 to Manchester? Why is she even getting involved. As much as I don't think any of what has been announced today will actually happen, it's a far better deal for West Yorkshire than the alternative.

People really need to start thinking outside their own little bubbles.

Whilst it may have been far from the best option, one way for HS2 to have made it to Leeds was first to Manchester then onto Leeds via NPR. With HS2 to Manchester now cancelled, that's one less way for it to get to Leeds as well.

The high speed spur from Birmingham to East Midlands Parkway has been scrapped as well yesterday (mostly overlooked by the media despite it cutting the Birmingham to Nottingham travel time by 60%) and that was another route HS2 could have in future been extended to Leeds.

Although Leeds may have the largest financial sector outside of London, like it or not Manchester is the largest player in the North. I'm definitely not saying they should receive all or most of any investment, but if even Manchester can't secure big infrastructure investment, there's little to no hope for the rest of the North. Also investment in Manchester would grow their economy, making that city PLUS the rest of the North including Leeds a more attractive place to invest in.

As long as there is constant infighting and mud slinging between the regions then London wins, and if London keeps winning the rest of us lose.

Though I think he's wavered by not resigning, Andy Street (WM Mayor) sought out private firms to fund HS2 to Manchester. Had he, Andy Burnham and Tracy Brabin joined forces to do the same, then that would have been a strong cross party lobbying of government to commit to HS2 in full.

 

[Aviador]

People really need to start thinking outside their own little bubbles.

I am in no bubble. I spend half my life in Manchester and I have seen what a decent transport system can achieve. Obviously I'm referring to Metrolink. Manchester has leapfrogged Birmingham and Leeds, not because of it's size, but because it has had the investment in the right places, the airport; the Metrolink and the M60. The last time Leeds had any investment on that scale was back in 1959 when the M1 was built.

 

[Len Fish]

People really need to start thinking outside their own little bubbles.

Whilst it may have been far from the best option, one way for HS2 to have made it to Leeds was first to Manchester then onto Leeds via NPR. With HS2 to Manchester now cancelled, that's one less way for it to get to Leeds as well.

The high speed spur from Birmingham to East Midlands Parkway has been scrapped as well yesterday (mostly overlooked by the media despite it cutting the Birmingham to Nottingham travel time by 60%) and that was another route HS2 could have in future been extended to Leeds.

Although Leeds may have the largest financial sector outside of London, like it or not Manchester is the largest player in the North. I'm definitely not saying they should receive all or most of any investment, but if even Manchester can't secure big infrastructure investment, there's little to no hope for the rest of the North. Also investment in Manchester would grow their economy, making that city PLUS the rest of the North including Leeds a more attractive place to invest in.

As long as there is constant infighting and mud slinging between the regions then London wins, and if London keeps winning the rest of us lose.

Though I think he's wavered by not resigning, Andy Street (WM Mayor) sought out private firms to fund HS2 to Manchester. Had he, Andy Burnham and Tracy Brabin joined forces to do the same, then that would have been a strong cross party lobbying of government to commit to HS2 in full.

The private sector wouldn't touch it with a bargepole when HS2 was first suggested and I doubt they would now with the ever spiralling cost. They much prefer for the taxpayer to take the risk and as it’s turned out they were right.

“Yet another betrayal of the North” just like the lack of support for LBA from her and the likes of Sobel.

 

[leedslad]

People really need to start thinking outside their own little bubbles.

Whilst it may have been far from the best option, one way for HS2 to have made it to Leeds was first to Manchester then onto Leeds via NPR. With HS2 to Manchester now cancelled, that's one less way for it to get to Leeds as well.

The high speed spur from Birmingham to East Midlands Parkway has been scrapped as well yesterday (mostly overlooked by the media despite it cutting the Birmingham to Nottingham travel time by 60%) and that was another route HS2 could have in future been extended to Leeds.

Although Leeds may have the largest financial sector outside of London, like it or not Manchester is the largest player in the North. I'm definitely not saying they should receive all or most of any investment, but if even Manchester can't secure big infrastructure investment, there's little to no hope for the rest of the North. Also investment in Manchester would grow their economy, making that city PLUS the rest of the North including Leeds a more attractive place to invest in.

As long as there is constant infighting and mud slinging between the regions then London wins, and if London keeps winning the rest of us lose.

Though I think he's wavered by not resigning, Andy Street (WM Mayor) sought out private firms to fund HS2 to Manchester. Had he, Andy Burnham and Tracy Brabin joined forces to do the same, then that would have been a strong cross party lobbying of government to commit to HS2 in full.

Two things here though...

How long would a HS train to London via Manchester and then Birmingham take? 63 mins Manc to London via HS2. Add a 5 minute stop at Manc. Then HS3 estimated best time was 33 mins Leeds to Manc. So that's 1h 41. Hardly a huge benefit to Leeds Vs 2h trip today (and likely faster with future East Coast improvement).

If Manc had got HS2 and Leeds did not then Leeds would have been left at a huge economic disadvantage. In sorry to say if Leeds wasn't getting HS2 then it's good for Leeds that Manc also missed out.

 

[Aviador]

Manchester already has significant transport advantages over this side of the Pennines. Leeds and Bradford in comparison are seriously disadvantaged not having a decent city wide metro system. Leeds only has one station in the city centre and it lacks the benefit of having a city wide orbital motorway. This is not because Leeds hasn't tried to improve it's transport infrastructure. Leeds has tried to gain funding on at least three separate occasions for trams or trolly buses. The money was denied on each occasion by Whitehall by both Labour and the Conservatives.

As somebody who goes to Manchester frequently and see the investment taking shape in the city, it is clear the M60 and MetroLink played a huge part as the catalyst to that investment. 15 years ago Leeds and Manchester were pretty much level pegging with investment. In Leeds plans were afoot to build the 47 and 29 storey kissing towers known as Criterion Place and the kissing towers known as Lumiere. Manchester was slightly ahead of the game with construction already underway on Beetham Tower. At the same time the Metrolink was already expanding throughout Manchester. Then the economy hit a bumpy road and construction ground to a halt . Leeds never recovered after that but Manchester was left in a position where it was easier to recover from.

Now after already losing the HS2 Leeds line, the Manchester connection has now been cut. This is indeed a kick in the teeth for the North, but no less so than losing the Leeds line. Not a great situation all round really but I still believe this is Leeds' change to rebalance its economy with Manchester. If Leeds can get the funding for a decent metro system that serves Bradford as well, it will put Leeds and Bradford back on the map right where it belongs.

 

[Bigman]

Well for starters they need to get on with the airport Parkway station. Should be no excuse now. Next they need to put major investment into buses and coaches. We must be one of the only airports without a National Express service. Half hourly service to Leeds on a packed A1 that stops everywhere doesn't wash with me. How about an hourly National Express service from Leeds to Newcastle via the airport, Harrogate, Ripon, Darlington and Durham.

 

[White Heather]

Well for starters they need to get on with the airport Parkway station. Should be no excuse now. Next they need to put major investment into buses and coaches. We must be one of the only airports without a National Express service. Half hourly service to Leeds on a packed A1 that stops everywhere doesn't wash with me. How about an hourly National Express service from Leeds to Newcastle via the airport, Harrogate, Ripon, Darlington and Durham.

I have suggested to LBA management that a National Bus route from the NE could divert via the A59/A658 to the airport en route to Leeds. They said they had raised this but National weren't interested. I feel sure the time taken to plod down from LBA to the Central Bus Station would be something of a turn off for the bus company, and their passengers .

 

[Coathanger16]

Two things here though...

How long would a HS train to London via Manchester and then Birmingham take? 63 mins Manc to London via HS2. Add a 5 minute stop at Manc. Then HS3 estimated best time was 33 mins Leeds to Manc. So that's 1h 41. Hardly a huge benefit to Leeds Vs 2h trip today (and likely faster with future East Coast improvement).

If Manc had got HS2 and Leeds did not then Leeds would have been left at a huge economic disadvantage. In sorry to say if Leeds wasn't getting HS2 then it's good for Leeds that Manc also missed out.

A few things here:

Yes it's only a marginal time saving, but it's still an improvement over now.

However the big benefit, and again this is where people generally only look at their own bubble and also where HS2 has been criminally mis-sold, is the capacity that would be released by HS2.

The current fast LNER trains from London to Leeds calls at 5 or 6 stations including King's Cross and Leeds. Along the East Coast Mainline between London and Leeds, there are no less than 35 stations, the vast majority of which those fast trains pass straight through. They are served, but those services have to work around the fast intercity trains.

When you move those fast trains over to HS2, either on an Eastern branch or via Manchester, that releases a huge amount of capacity on the existing line for new and improved services.

Between Wakefield and Leeds there is just one station on the ECML at Outwood. Removing those fast trains would free up room on the existing network providing capacity to add new stations in the South of Leeds that currently wouldn't be worthwhile as there isn't the capacity in the network to call at those new stations. Alternatively if it proved better, without needing to accommodate fast intercity trains, that line could be reworked into a light rail/tram line that runs on the existing rails until the edge of Leeds city centre, then goes onto a regular tram line through the city centre.

Combining HS2 and Trans-Pennine services into a single new build high speed line between Leeds and Manchester has a far better business case than that line plus another high speed line coming into Leeds from South Yorkshire & the East Midlands.

Manchester wants that Trans-Pennine Link. Leeds wants that Trans-Pennine Link. Liverpool, Sheffield, Hull and Newcastle also all want it. Get that built first, get the fast journey times between Leeds and Manchester (and other Northern cities that would use it), release capacity on the existing network for new and improved services, and then go for the HS2 eastern branch that improves journey times to Leeds.

HS3/NPR would have used part of HS2 South of Manchester. Now Manchester has lost HS2, the cost of that section would have to be included in the cost of HS3/NPR making that scheme more expensive and worsening its business case and BCR. That has an impact on Leeds, Liverpool and the rest of the North, so no, Manchester losing HS2 is not good for Leeds.

Liverpool is "happy" Phase 2 has been cancelled as Manchester would have had a far quicker journey time to London than Liverpool would (5 mins difference now vs 20 mins difference after HS2 Phase 2). They view that as falling behind despite them actually getting a faster journey time to London than now.

Leeds is "happy" Phase 2 to Manchester has been cancelled.

Westminster sees this infighting and glee from Northern cities when another Northern city loses out. Meanwhile the whole of London and the Home Counties generally agree on infrastructure. What is good for one part of London is good for another. That is what the rest of the country needs to do as well. We need to stop comparing Leeds to Manchester and Liverpool to Manchester and start comparing the whole of the North to London.

If you want to compete, pit HS3/NPR against Crossrail 2. At the moment I'd place money on Crossrail 2 being built (or at least starting construction) before HS2 goes North of Birmingham or HS3/NPR starts.

 

[Aviador]

Liverpool is "happy" Phase 2 has been cancelled as Manchester would have had a far quicker journey time to London than Liverpool would

Leeds is "happy" Phase 2 to Manchester has been cancelled.

When Leeds had its HS2 link cancelled everybody just said too bad, nevermind. Now the Manchester link is canned its a major catastrophe.

As I said in an earlier post, it has been more than 50 years since The M1 reached Leeds which was the last time Leeds had any significant infrastructure investment.

I live in Leeds and I make no apology for wanting to put Leeds first just as you would put Birmingham first. The bottom line is HS2 was costing too much. The amount of money the project was escalating to was out of control and no amount of persuasion will convince me it was right to spend that kind of money without it benefiting more people.

In any case, why should my taxpayers money go to something that won't benefit my area. We have had enough of that paying for London Cross Rail at a cost of around £20bn.

 

[Coathanger16]

When Leeds had its HS2 link cancelled everybody just said too bad, nevermind. Now the Manchester link is canned its a major catastrophe.

When the Leeds leg was "cancelled" it was actually curtailed to East Midlands Parkway where it would continue on conventional track to Leeds.

The idea of routing HS2 trains via Manchester and HS3/NPR was also floated at the time plus a report into how best to get HS2 to Leeds was at the least announced if not commissioned.

i.e. HS2 was still going to the North and effort was being made to get it to Leeds.

With this latest announcement, HS2 will no longer go to the North at all and no work is being done to even see if it could ever do so in the future. Furthermore the government is trying its hardest to prevent any future government from resurrecting any parts of HS2 north of Birmingham/Handsacre.

That is quite a difference in scenarios.

I won't lie, the reaction to the Eastern Leg being cancelled was muted from all quarters in comparison to this recent announcement, but I don't especially recall the Mayor for West Yorkshire being anywhere near as vocal in her opposition to the cancellation as the Mayors of Greater Manchester and West Midlands have been recently.

Also I don't recall much in the way of criticism from the East Midlands either though that may have been due in part to them still getting a high speed line from Birmingham to East Midlands Parkway instead which was almost like for like with what they were getting before.

I live in Leeds and I make no apology for wanting to put Leeds first just as you would put Birmingham first. The bottom line is HS2 was costing too much. The amount of money the project was escalating to was out of control and no amount of persuasion will convince me it was right to spend that kind of money without it benefiting more people.

Except I don't put Birmingham first. Yes I want to see investment in the city and region, but not at the expense of everywhere else in the country.

If there's say £500m up for grabs then yes I would want that to go to Birmingham to expand the metro there, but if it instead went to Leeds to start a tram network then I'd still be happy because somewhere that needed investment would still be getting it. Investment in Leeds boosts the economy there, which boosts the economy of the UK overall, allowing government to increase spending and borrow more which is funds that then could be spent in Birmingham.

Yes HS2 was costing a lot - largely due to placating nimby's and constant government interference - but in the grand scheme of things not unaffordable. Even at £100bn, spreading the cost over the 20 years construction was going to take equated to roughly £5bn per year or 0.5% of annual government spending. Per year the government spends more money on the NHS than they would spend over two decades on HS2.

The money for HS2 wasn't coming from annual government spending but from borrowing. Yes borrowed money has to be paid back which will come from future tax payers money, but £100bn borrowed is £100bn borrowed - in terms of your taxes paying that back in the future it doesn't matter what that money is spent on.

The question then becomes is it the best way to spend £100bn? The general consensus amongst the rail industry is that a massive upgrade to the rail network is needed either in the form of HS2 or something very similar. By all means get costs under control and don't spend more that you need to, but if the infrastructure will be needed at some point in the future anyway, isn't it best to crack on and get it built now so we get the benefits of it sooner?

As I highlighted before, HS2 still benefits you at a local level because it releases capacity on the existing rail network for more local rail services. Even if you never use HS2 you'd still benefit from more frequent and faster trains between Leeds and its suburbs.

In any case, why should my taxpayers money go to something that won't benefit my area. We have had enough of that paying for London Cross Rail at a cost of around £20bn.

If that's your attitude, if you want a super tram for Leeds, you pay for it. Don't go to Westminster with a begging bowl and don't whinge when central government doesn't invest in Leeds.

You can't want your taxes to only be spent in Leeds whilst at the same time criticising government for not spending peoples taxes from elsewhere in the country in Leeds.

Also, half the cost of Crossrail was paid for by London businesses because they saw the benefit it would bring.

If the West Yorkshire Authority went to Westminster with £1bn promised from local businesses asking for an additional £1bn from central government for a new tram network, the government in power would be far more inclined to provide those funds than if the Authority went in asking for all £2bn.

 

[White Heather]

A good point about our esteemed WY Mayor being rather quiet when the Leeds leg was axed, in comparison to Andy Burnham now that the Manchester leg has gone the same way. Sadly, that's about normal, reason being, she's a waste of space, and spends most of her time hanging off Burnham's coat tails, repeating whatever he says but in a way that few bother to listen to.

In my humble opinion, she's only interested in schemes that enable her to take the credit. Hence her complete silence when LBA was fighting to get approval for the new £250m terminal. Her complete silence again, now that the airport is yet again under fire in the media. And her complete lack of enthusiasm when the Government said it would fund the Leeds tram scheme, pulling the glory rug from under her feet.

See what I did there? An admittedly feeble attempt to bring the discussion back to LBA. Really interesting and well written posts about HS2 and its merits, - but seemingly not in the correct thread?

 

[HX3]

Our esteemed WY Mayor is unfortunately our of her depth. She should have stuck to her bit parts in Doctors, where her apathy and incompetence would fit nicely the beige afternoon tv role of surgery reception, or middle aged Karen with a knee injury.

 

[Aviador]

@Coathanger16

It would appear Birmingham went with a "begging bowl" to central government and to Europe for funding. So why shouldn't Leeds or other cities for that matter?

Straight from Google:

The estimated construction cost in 1995 was £145 million (equivalent to £296,540,000 in 2021) of which loans and grants from central government accounted for £80M, the European Regional Development Fund contributed £31M, while the West Midlands Passenger Transport Authority provided £17.1M and Altram contributed £11.4M.

In Manchester the European Regional Development Fund contributed £10.8mn to the project and helped to accelerate the construction of the new facilities. The opening of Exchange Square stop in December 2015 was made possible by the EU grant. The area of Exchange Square was additionally redeveloped using £21.5mn of EU funding (equivalent to over £42mn in 2021 prices) in the aftermath of the 1996 IRA bomb attack. Source

In any case, I would have supported Birmingham and Manchester in obtaining money to fund these projects back then, just as I would support Birmingham today for additional funding to extend the Birmingham tram network. It is money better spent than on a point to point rail system that doesn't benefit nearly as many people.

I guess this is just one of those occasions where we will just have to agree to disagree.

 

[airforced]

Why not. No harm in asking is there?