Road, Rail & Access Issues

[Tim R-T-C]

Would be nice to have some bike routes in the area - I would consider riding into work, but not along the death trap roads in the Keighley to Bradford/Leeds areas.

Buses in the area have lost traffic IMHO because they are seriously behind the times. Certainly on Keighley & District time keeping is unknown, there are no status update indicators even on the busiest routes so you have no idea when the buses are actually due, they won't take card payments (and grumble at even small notes being tendered) and have a timetable that drops off completely at the start of evening rush-hour.

 

[Bigman]

According to the new Northern Franchise Improvements announced today. There will be 4 trains per hour between Leeds and Harrogate in a few years time. Surely a new parkway station needs to be built to take advantage of this.

On the negative side, there will be direct trains from Bradford to Manchester Airport in a few years time.

 

[whoshotjimmi]

Swapping sitting on a bus instaed of in a car seems pointless. This report shows bus usage has fallen 35% in the last decade and train use gone up by 110% #http://www.Leeds.gov.uk/docs/CD10-14%20WARD%20report%20-%20Transport%20Policy%20Comments%2016%20Oct%202013.pdf
People are not going to shift from car to bus and take around 30% longer to do the journey. In the 2011 report I list below, there was nearly 7000 cars an hour in the evening rush hour on the A65, with the increase in traffic flow over the last 5 years you need over 100 buses an hour to make a dent.
The 2011 report noted that Bikes, car share and walking were the keys for the future, not sure we have made any progress over the last 5 years in this direction orplan to do so in the next 5 years.
https://www.Bradford.gov.uk/NR/rdonlyre ... 0and71.pdf

If I was to continue regarding car share, it is also important to note that the A647 towards Leeds has made no significant change to traffic levels ever since its inception more than 15 years ago and also the A650 scheme out of Bradford was discontinued only a few months after opening due to the chaos that it caused. The reason people will not use buses is because the service is so bad. What it needs is someone to start managing it properly and providing something that the public can use.

I think the overall negativity shown here towards the billions of pounds that is being spent on improving transport links in Yorkshire sums up half the problem. You can't do right for doing wrong. Some people will never be happy. You could build a 2 storey extension onto a person's house for free and all they will do is complain that it will cost more to heat. So it is of no surprise to see that people think that all a new road will do is move a problem further along the road. Yes, it may well do that. But we can either do that and steadily improve and then plan the next improvement or we could do nothing and be in the same situation forever. I travel through Saltaire and along the Bingley bypass almost every day of my life. Every day, without fail, I get stuck around Shipley and Saltaire but, my word, it is so much better than it was before the bypass was built. And that is what it will be like in North West Leeds if a new road gets built. It might not be perfect, but it will be so much better as a result. And, if it benefits the airport, even better.

To follow on from today's announcement about the new Northern and TransPennine rail franchises, I have been very impressed by the planned improvements and eagerly await their introduction. Along with the doubling of the frequency between Leeds and Harrogate, it is stated that services on the Airedale and Wharfedale lines will be run with 6 carriages instead of the current 4. I really don't see how much more can be done but even that has been criticised by every union going. (Right/wrong etc) I have included a link below to a page that displays all the changes across the rail network that are expected over the next few years.

http://maps.dft.gov.uk/northern/index.html

If people are still negative about spending all that money to make life better for people living in the area, let's scrap it altogether, give all the money to me and let me enjoy it! I have a good idea of what I could spend it on.

 

[Aviador]

Bob Buxton a Rawdon councillor is to fight for a seat on Leeds city council to oppose the proposed new airport road and greenbelt development.

http://www.ilkleygazette.co.uk/news/141 ... oad_plans/

 

[Tarn Spotter]

I fully accept the bus services are very poor, but what is the point in putting on more buses to increase traffic congestion. people will only use the bus routes if it is going to get them in a reasonable time for A to B, this is not going to happen with the present road useage. Bus useage is falling, putting more on will not make a difference. Bus journey times are increasing now the benefits of bus lanes has been absorbed.
Whilst it is great to see the incraese in both extra rolling stock and more frequent commuter train services, unless we can get the extra passengers to the stations without the need for a car, were back at sqaure one, with the parking issue at station.
Until my recent retirement I had a transport company with in excess of 100 large commercial vehicles. Over the last 15 years all these vehicles have been removed from running during the rush hours in major commuter belts as have all my competitors. We no longer make town deliveries between 7am to 7pm. We moved our transport and warehouse site from town to the M62 corridor twenty years ago, creating issues for 1250 staff. All these changes by the transport industry have been a major contributor to traffic movements, however, this was a one off benefit, were not going to get the benefits again. We now need to get a large slug of other motorists off the road at peak times (school run traffic, courier delivery traffic etc)
I hear the same arguments today I did 50 years ago. Hearing Bob Buxton talking, I despair that we have totally failed to understand our shortcomings. he ought to go and measure the air quality on the A65 locally for starters.

 

[Seasider]

Most car drivers are idle. If you can make them walk to have to use their car, they may consider using public transport. Difficult when they park on their drive but not too difficult (if the will is there) to ban them from city/town centres, workplaces.
The mind set of a lot of people is that they are entitled to park outside where they want to be. Think back to the "discussions" when LBIA introduced the drop off charge.

 

[Aviador]

Times have changed considerably and the majority of people work in the city centre of Leeds or Bradford these days. Back in the 60's and early 70's most people in the area worked locally and they could easily walk to work. The local area was an employment centre with mills and factories just about everywhere so work wasn't far from school for mums dropping off the kids.

A further point to note is house prices in the area are so high now that most households require two full-time incomes to pay for a mortgage. The days of the breadwinner going out to work while the other-half stays at home are a thing of the past. This invariably leads to an almost military operation getting the kids to school and picking them up as well as fitting work into the equation at the same time.

Schools are oversubscribed and some people have to take their children to a school much further away from where they live than what they should have to. This can result in sizeable journey distances to drop the kids off before catching a train into Bradford or Leeds. The actual walk to school isn't always a problem, it's often the time it takes when you have to go to work somewhere 9 or so miles away.

I have two children. I work shifts, I don't work the old 9 while 5 shift. My wife works in Leeds for a well known company on a flexible pattern but she still has to cover full time hours . For us every day is different and sometimes we also have to rely on Grandma and Granddad to ensure the kids get to schools while we are both out at work. This inevitably means we have to drive to drop the kids off at their house 2 miles away and then they have to drive to drop the kids off at school when school opens. Sadly this isn't a one off as numerous friends of ours are in a similar predicament. Sometimes working hours outside of the old 9 while 5 pattern can be more of a hindrance for families rather than a positive.

So banning cars from roads is not the answer. Nearly all the brownfield sites in the Aireborough area have had houses built on them. There are fewer and fewer employment areas so this will inevitably lead to more and more people on the roads as people have to go out of the area for employment. Incidentally, Leeds City Council says the majority of people working in the centre of Leeds commute from the outer areas of the city.

Looking back, it's hard to believe both Yeadon and Otley both had railway stations. It was pure madness to close them. The area was also well served by trams, again this was a huge oversight and a massive lack of forward thinking on behalf of our city forefathers.

 

[Bigman]

Hi Aviador. Not just Otley and Yeadon though was it. Wetherby, Tadcaster, Kippax, Cleckheaton, Ossett...the list is endless. I guess that a new station at Low Moor will take some strain off the roads into Bradford. I would be interested to see what impact if any Apperley Bridge station has on local traffic when it opens on Sunday.

 

[Aviador]

I have often wondered what it would cost to reopen all the stations previously closed. It would probably be cheaper and more cost effective to reopen them all than building a full cross city tram or trollybus from scratch.

 

[Tarn Spotter]

The Beeching report of 1963 recommended that 2128 stations were to be closed in the u.k..
I lived at the time just outside Pocklington and our local station closed in November 1965, many people put forward the idea that the rail network should be retained as the substitute road network, but people were moving to car purchase and it seemed that the £140m yearly losses (must be billions in todays money) would just rise to a level we could not sustain.
Unfortunately as Londons's airport decision failure just shows we are incapable of making long term decisions because our politicians are more worried about re election then making the right long term plans.
We dont need cars, I moved to Yeadon because of its local transport links and shops, knowing that it is likely I cannot continue to drive longterm due to my age. I would have loved to stay in my previous house, but had to make a long term decision.
Both my daughter in laws with children dont drive, they have no issues in working, school etc, you can plan your own life. my sister has never driven and it never caused an issue with her children or grandchildren or working that has taken over the whole world.
I would like to see LBA operate 24 hours a day, not just from 6am, however, there will be a band of people who will object many who either dont live in the area or moved in after the airport up and running. I had hardly unpacked in 1986 when I moved to Guiseley before neighbours were knocking on the door trying to get me to sign a petition about extending airport hours. They were non plussed when I asked who had a petition in support of extending the hours. Within three years they were busy trying to out do each other in how much their house had risen in value, prices trebled by the end of the century, a lot of the increase due the airport.

 

[White Heather]

Tarn Spotter - LBA does operate 24 hours!! It has a 24 hour license and there are numerous arrivals during the n ould be treated differently to every other airport.
On the subject of cars. Sorry, but I have to disagree. There are many people who DO need cars. There are many people whose livelihoods depend on using them, or on others having them. Areas such as the Yorkshire Dales depend on having them and tourism is dependent on others using them to get there. I have no intention of abandoning my car and going on the bus any time soon, whilst the train is too far from where I live. If I go to work by car it takes me 15 minutes as I leave early to avoid the traffic. By bus - including walking to the bus stop (often alone in the dark), and from the bus to my office (alone in the dark and some very iffy characters around), takes a minimum of 1 hour each way and often more. Virtually everywhere I go to recover from a week at work is not reachable by public transport. To get to the supermarket I use, without a car it would be 2 buses each way. Frankly I get tired of the war on cars and making a statement 'we don't need cars' ignores the needs of many people.

 

[Tarn Spotter]

White Heather: Were talking about LBA area, not the Yorkshire dales.
My partner is disabled and struggles to walk 5 yards, my mother was in a wheelchair all my life so I know about the need for transport. We moved from Guiseley to yeadon as in our old age it improved our support needs and inproved local transport links, we can all move.
However, we could manage if cars were banned ( or lose our licence), we can all make a list of reasons why we need a car, they are ways round there use, I know that. I could make a hundred reasons why we should not ban cars, however, my concern is the situation were handing on to our grandchildren and if we have to bear short term inconvenience, so be. My mother had to push her wheel chair 12 miles a day to take us children too and from our village school. I can still remember in 1947 the snow above the hedges, but we still made school.
I put banning cars in rush hour at the moment as an idea, trying to reduce rush hour traffic, okay no one likes the idea, lets hear some other ideas that can reduce rush hour traffic please and limit to the A65 and airport surrounding areas not the Yorkshire dales etc. Due to ill health we could all lose our licence to drive tomorrow, so do you stop your life?

 

[Aviador]

Tarn Spotter

In one of your earlier posts you said that your daughter-in-laws got about fine with children and without owning a car. Can you tell me more as I had the courtesy to explain in great detail why it wasn't possible for our family and friends to do without a car. I also commented on how things had changed since the 60's and 70's with regards to house prices and subsequent cost of mortgages, the changing employment centres and the oversubscribed schools with councils sending children to schools further afield.

Your argument seems flawed to be honest as you're only considering your own wants and needs and as someone who is retired. I asked my parents who are also retired to read your posts because I wanted to know if it was maybe perhaps an age thing or even just me. They agreed with me in that things had changed considerably since the 50's and 60's when they were at school. They said nothing is just around the corner these days, everything is much further away.

I live on a street of new houses. Some of our neighbours moved to Yeadon from Bradford. Some of them have been unable to move their children to a schools in Yeadon and they still have to drive their children to schools in Bradford.

 

[Aviador]

My mother had to push her wheel chair 12 miles a day to take us children too and from our village school

So your mother didn't work then. That is exactly the point. It's not that people necessarily have a problem with walking anywhere, they don't have the time and the village life you talk about is long gone.

My mother grew up in Menston. As a child she live in the village a short walk from Menston railway station where she caught the steam train to Guiseley to then walk the short distance to her school on Oxford Road. Her parents lived and worked locally in the Village, so no car required.

My farther grew up in Guiseley a short walk from the same school on Oxford road. He was part of a single parent family and his older brothers and sisters help out while his mother worked locally in Guiseley.

When my parents grew up both my mother and farther lived and worked in the Yeadon and Guiseley area. Except for a short period when my father worked in Otley, he spent all his working life working locally within walking distance of his home.

My mother didn't always need to work but she chose to work both part-time and full-time when she was younger working around school times. She used to walk to the shops daily to do the shopping on Yeadon High Street where grocery and butchers shops were plentiful without the need for one big heavy shop in a supermarket.

As I have already said, several times in fact, employment in the local area is few and far between now.

You support airport expansion but you would also support banning cars locally. That is odd considering the majority of airport users arrive at the airport by car and this is unlikely to change until the airport is handling considerably more passengers than it already does to make a rail link viable. How would you suggest airport users get to the airport in your world of no cars? Or does the airport not accept aircraft during the periods of no local traffic?

 

[White Heather]

Tarn Spotter, yes we are talking about the Leeds Bradford Area, and Leeds Bradford Airport in particular - not whether or not cars should be banned. Whether you like it or not, cars exist, they are here to stay, and the lives people live in many instances are based around them. You stating 'we don't need cars' and then justifying it by referring to your family is just ridiculous to be honest. People DO needs cars, and LBA DOES need the new access road, which needs to be Option A. People have the choice of using a car, a train, or a bus provided those public transport options are available. In many cases, they are not, so the car is their only option.

 

[Tarn Spotter]

Final words from me on this subject, I did not put forward banning cars, I put forward proposals to curb traffic for 16% of the day, still leaving a vast amount of time
Shoot me down by all means, put please put up some other ideas, we cant continue as present. Yesterdays Paris agreement has thrown a huge spoke in car ownership.

 

[Aviador]

Yes I agree that things are going to have to change and although aircraft are already considerably cleaner than they were 20 years ago, there's still a long way to go. There is going to be a large move towards green technology over the next few years. Only this week Ford have said they would like to see 40% of their cars produced to be electric cars over the next few years. The electricity still has to be produced in the first place to power the new electric cars. Only a reduction in car ownership or a smaller population will bring a reduction in Co2 ommissions. In a sense capitalism is a way of self distruction as it requires economies to constantly grow every year. One of the other reasons governments don't like to reduce immigration.

I'm still disappointed you didn't answer my questions, even though your idea what just an idea.

Maybe some of these plots in tbe area earmarked for houses should be made available for industrial use so fewer people are required to leave the area for work?

 

[Aviador]

Apperley Bridge railway station has finally opened. Hopefully we'll see some movement regarding linking the new station to the airport shortly.

Pictures courteous of Bradford T&A

First passengers board trains from Apperley Bridge station

 

[whoshotjimmi]

Quite interesting reading all the points and opinions on this subject. I have a particular interest in Human Geography and follow any infrastructure improvements closely.

I absolutely do not think the right idea is to wage war on the car or introduce fake schemes such as banning cars at certain times. All this does is paper over the other issues that are causing traffic in the first place.

I look at it like this.

On the railway network in West Yorkshire, where there are large car parks at stations, they are full. This means that people are actively seeking to drive to local stations to get the train to Leeds/Bradford/Harrogate etc. Park and Ride is a massive opportunity in the county, particularly when the travel time into the city centres is low. The Park and Ride at Elland Road has been a huge success - despite being bus based - due to the fast and frequent services available. The park and ride at King Lane in Alwoodley has been an absolute flop ever since conception due to the slower, less frequent services.

It is as simple as that.

I suspect that Apperley Bridge will quickly become over subscribed, despite having provision for 300 vehicles. Just think, if another 10 park and rides like that opened on the networks around Leeds and Bradford, we are talking 3,000 less vehicles a day on the road - most of which would be at peak times. To put this into perspective, the A65 into Leeds has peak morning traffic of 5,300 vehicles per day. This has been a DECREASING trend over the last 15 years. Far from getting worse, the traffic in Leeds is actually getting better. I can't comment on the rest of West Yorkshire.

The main reason this is happening is because rail services have been improving. Stick another few Park and Rides about (East Leeds, Horsforth Woodside, Stourton etc) add more parking spaces at existing stations and, suddenly, the situation look very rosy indeed. That is without looking at how many miles of heavily populated suburbs of Leeds and Bradford that railway lines pass through with NO station provision at all.

Much of the infrastructure required is already there. We just need to utilise it better. Book Aerosmith and they will come. Give people a fast, efficient and cost effective public transport system and they will use it.

 

[White Heather]

I agree with that whoshotjimmi, but for me, the 'fast, efficient and cost effective' bit excludes buses, because from where I live they are slow, inefficient and very expensive. The bus takes in excess of 45 minutes to cover the 5.5 miles into Leeds and often longer than that. The train takes 12 minutes and is actually cheaper. Sadly the station (Horsforth) is too far to walk regularly and the car park is tiny, whilst in Leeds my office is a full 20 minute walk from the station, which is no joke in pouring rain.

It is high time they built a park and ride at Horsforth Woodside, and - IF they finally see sense and build a parkway station for the airport near the entrance to the Bramhope Tunnel and IF they go for Option A for the new airport road, then there is immediately a golden opportunity to create a significant park and ride facility that will cater for Cookridge, Bramhope, Horsforth, Otley and all surrounding areas, with access via the new road.

But wait though.........it is of course green belt, so despite the obvious environmental benefits, it will meet with huge objections as usual and probably never happen. Who knows, if the powers that be see sense, they might even extend the ill advised Trolley Bus to terminate at the Airport, and pass through the said park and ride on the way there. Only in Leeds could be set up a new transport system that terminates at an ASDA store - when there is the region's No 1 airport just 3 miles away. Another opportunity missed - although I for one consider the Trolley Bus a waste of time and money.