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Would you support a second referendum?

  • YES

    Votes: 6 75.0%
  • NO

    Votes: 2 25.0%

  • Total voters
    8

Jerry

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I'm not paying much attention to all this election stuff. Am too busy stocking up on tinned food and building my 'inner core or refuge ' under the dining table.
Sounds like you are preparing for the end of the world!
 

Finger66

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Aug 21, 2015
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Sounds like you are preparing for the end of the world!
The end of the world is for those who make a "Korea" of it. Now that and this next joke are "Seoul" destroying. Now that is making light of a potential very serious situation. One that could have a far more catastrophic result than Brexit. So I suppose that well and truly "Trumps" it.
 

Jerry

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TheLocalYokel

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NB. This post is a continuation of a discussion in the Cardiff Airport General thread which has spread beyond purely CWL matters. See #1161 onwards in below link.

https://www.forums4airports.com/threads/113/page-59#post-134702

Theresa May said that it has to be ratified by all the devolved administrations. Also there is an argument about the powers that are coming back from the EU that are in areas already devolved. In the end it's a constitutional thing as both the Welsh and Scottish governments have bills going through to claim the powers but the UK government wants the powers to go to Westminster first and then get doled out which both devolved administrations are calling a power grab. If they can't agree a deal then i wouldn't be surprised if it ended up in the Supreme Court.
May might have said that but it's not enshrined in law. If she has backed herself into that corner the devolved governments could demand anything in order to secure their support. If she felt the demands were too much and could not accept them then logically her stance would mean no Brexit Act passed. That would have the effect of the devolved governments holding power over England which has no devolved government. Furthermore, it would mean that the residents of Wales and Scotland have two bites of the Brexit cherry: one via their devolved government and the other via their Westminster MPs.

Incidentally, it could equally be argued that if the Welsh and Scottish governments are trying to get more powers from Westminster as a price for their Brexit support then that could be called a power grab.

Well i'm sure Nicola Sturgeon would say that the Scottish people didn't vote for it and that Carwyn Jones would say that the Welsh people didn't vote to make themselves poorer and that his job is to protect Wales.
It will be interesting to see what becomes of all this.
That's the result of our voting system, not that I'm a fan of any proportional representation system. Since 1945 no winning party has ever secured more than 50% of the votes cast in a UK general election. Conservative's best was 49.7% in 1955 and Labour's best was 48.8% in 1951. So in general elections more people could say they didn't vote for the winning party than those that did. I know that officially we vote for candidates and not parties in general elections but the reality is that the overwhelming majority vote for a party's candidate.

You are right about Sturgeon and Jones having a duty to do the best for the people of their country. There can be no argument about that but in this quaisi federal UK system (and I make no apology for referring to it again) whose duty is it to do their best for the people of England? In the absence of an English government, the Westminster PM - like a judge in a court where the defendant is unrepresented - has a duty to ensure that the interests of the people of England are also looked after. Wales and Scotland even have their own secretaries of state at Westminster as well as their own devolved governments. England has neither.
 

Aviador

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I'm not paying much attention to all this election stuff. Am too busy stocking up on tinned food and building my 'inner core or refuge ' under the dining table.
I've got my secret stash of dried food building up too. Rations of rice and pasta to last us for about a month and growing. I'm building up a collection of vegetable seeds and I've planted up the garden with fruit trees in preparation for the hard times ahead. I'm sure people will think I'm bonkers but I'll be eating when they're starving.
 

paully

Active Member
Jan 22, 2018
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I've got my secret stash of dried food building up too. Rations of rice and pasta to last us for about a month and growing. I'm building up a collection of vegetable seeds and I've planted up the garden with fruit trees in preparation for the hard times ahead. I'm sure people will think I'm bonkers but I'll be eating when they're starving.
you re right..I think you are bonkers...
 

Jerry

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May might have said that but it's not enshrined in law. If she has backed herself into that corner the devolved governments could demand anything in order to secure their support.
Yes they could but she said herself she wanted the consensus. What they are concerned about is that powers that are returning from the EU which are in areas that are already devolved won't come back but get scooped up by the UK government when they should be under the devolved governments, i suppose it just shows how intertwined the EU has become into the UK. With other powers i don't think they would be after anything major but if the welsh government can squeeze something like APD out of the UK government then that would be a bonus for them in any negotiations. From what i've read in the papers it does seem like they are getting closer to a deal.
You are right about Sturgeon and Jones having a duty to do the best for the people of their country. There can be no argument about that but in this quaisi federal UK system (and I make no apology for referring to it again) whose duty is it to do their best for the people of England?
I suppose what Brexit has done is maybe shown up how bodged up devolution is without really being a proper federal system like in the US or Canada or Australia or Belgium, though if we'd had a system like Belgium i think it can be guarenteed Brexit would've been blocked by the Scottish government and I can imagine the reaction to that!
 

Jerry

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Looks like an UK-US Open Skies deal is a step closer as the ownerships of airlines like BA, Virgin and Norwegian won't be prohibitive towards them carrying on operating to the US, also the new deal will include British Overseas territories as well. Though there are some issues that remain like the UK seeking extra protection for newcomers to increase competition, negotiators believe that the deal will be announced before the March 2019 Brexit deadline.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...ies-deal-us-due-summer-negotiators-agree-key/
 

TheLocalYokel

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So where do we go from here? A new Brexit Secretary has been appointed but there is still a lot of disquiet on parts of the Conservative benches about the Prime Minister's latest manifestation of Brexit which many Brexiteers consider a watered down version of Brexit and not what the country voted for. As things have turned out did anyone know what they voted for? Furthermore, the EU might want the PM's current Brexit version diluted even more.

There is a lot of talk today that the government is trying to turn to Labour to get their latest proposals through parliament.

Thanks to the PM's rash decision to call a general election that left her in hoc to the DUP, she has little room for manoeuvre amongst her own MPs. They will know though that if they rock the boat too much the outcome could well be a general election which the Conservatives might lose, especially if one or more of the other parties campaigns on remaining in the EU, with electoral support at the ballot box being taken as a signal that the country agrees.

It might run deeper than that. In the event of Labour gaining the most seats but falling short of an overall majority they might have to turn to the Scottish Nationalists and others to help form a government. The Scots Nats' price for such support would likely be a promise of a further Scottish Independence referendum which most Conservatives are implacably opposed to.

The Conservative MPs have a lot of cud to chew in the next few days.
 

Jerry

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Thanks to the PM's rash decision to call a general election that left her in hoc to the DUP, she has little room for manoeuvre amongst her own MPs. They will know though that if they rock the boat too much the outcome could well be a general election which the Conservatives might lose, especially if one or more of the other parties campaigns on remaining in the EU, with electoral support at the ballot box being taken as a signal that the country agrees.
I've no doubt that is what her main weapon is as a general election could no doubt open the door to a Corbyn government which by then may well be supportive if a second referendum and like you say if they can't get a majority would have to turn to the SNP for support which would effectively mean the UK would be partly governed by the SNP and the UK government would be held to their demands.
It does seem evident that the longer Brexit goes on the more softer it gets as realpolitick seems to be kicking in. Makes you wonder if we should bother leaving at all now!
 

Carl0927

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Our company export a lot, we are continuously being asked from our Chinese and Indian agents what is happening about Brexit, in fact they can't believe we are leaving anyway.
 

Jerry

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Our company export a lot, we are continuously being asked from our Chinese and Indian agents what is happening about Brexit, in fact they can't believe we are leaving anyway.
I think if you ask 10 different people you'll get 10 different answers!
 

TheLocalYokel

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Boris Johnson has resigned. The tory rebellion is underway.
Or the break up if the Tory party as we know it.
Conservative Brixiteeers and Conservative Remainers will certainly be well aware that the break-up of their party must be avoided at all costs. That would let in Jeremy Corbyn who the overwhelming majority of Conservatives, in and out of Westminster, view as someone they believe would take the country to the dogs as they see it, and if the Scots Nats were needed to help him do it that would simply exacerbate an already dire situation. Already in Parliament this afternoon there was evidence of the grass roots Tory MPs gathering around the MP to show support. However, the 1922 committee ought to give a clearer picture of the PM's position as leader of her party.
 

aviatorconcorde

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Feb 1, 2018
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Conservative Brixiteeers and Conservative Remainers will certainly be well aware that the break-up of their party must be avoided at all costs. That would let in Jeremy Corbyn who the overwhelming majority of Conservatives, in and out of Westminster, view as someone they believe would take the country to the dogs as they see it, and if the Scots Nats were needed to help him do it that would simply exacerbate an already dire situation. Already in Parliament this afternoon there was evidence of the grass roots Tory MPs gathering around the MP to show support. However, the 1922 committee ought to give a clearer picture of the PM's position as leader of her party.
The latest opinion was that the 1922 comittee was six signatures away from being able to trigger the vote of no confidence.

Depends how the brexit hardliners play this. They have to try and oust May without a break up and a general election.
 
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