Emirates

[JENNYJET]

If the word 'significant ' has a meaning we like it to have, perhaps A380 may make an appearance in a mixture of deployed equipment. I suppose it is dependent upon passenger and freight demand! Good news of course that Emirates are maintaining their link beyond London.

 

[CL44]

Significant can be two totally different things where passengers and freight are concerned. IF (and that is a very big word considering it is only two letters) the passenger figures come up then I suppose there would be an idea to put an A380 in. However if the figures do not work out then by all means keep the B777-300 (AKA flying warehouse) because that is where any revenue available will be without passenger figures over 425! Yes I know it appears to be sacrilege to criticize the A380 but for moving freight around the 777 is a MUCH better option for forwarders like me. To be fair I don't care as long as the service continues but I know which aircraft type makes my job easier!

 

[Brum X]

Significant can be two totally different things where passengers and freight are concerned. IF (and that is a very big word considering it is only two letters) the passenger figures come up then I suppose there would be an idea to put an A380 in. However if the figures do not work out then by all means keep the B777-300 (AKA flying warehouse) because that is where any revenue available will be without passenger figures over 425! Yes I know it appears to be sacrilege to criticize the A380 but for moving freight around the 777 is a MUCH better option for forwarders like me. To be fair I don't care as long as the service continues but I know which aircraft type makes my job easier!

Honestly the first thing I thought of when I heard 777 versus A380 was CL44 as I know how much you love the 777 flying warehouse.

 

[JENNYJET]

It is thanks to CL44 that I have an appreciation and understanding of the B777. I find it a deceptive aircraft and considered it nothing more than a 737 on steroids as it looked like a drugged up version of the 737 yet it is a hod carrier amongst a fleet of labouring workers. Any wonder Emirates have it as a mainstay of their fleet.

 

[Poshgirl]

Just done two "dummy" bookings for October. 12th BHX-DXB, 16th DXB-BHX. The other BHX-DXB 26th, DXB-BHX 30th (half-term week for most of UK).

Shows return of EK37/38, still 777. However, if bookings really pick up then it's possible A380 will return.

 

[Matt995]

current plan is from this Sunday (15th) Emirates will operate the lunch time service 6 times a week (No Monday), from the 6th September, service will be daily, and from 2nd October, they add the evening service on Saturdays, Mondays and Wednesdays making 10 flights a week, which will all be on the B777, and continue until July 2022.

However no doubt the schedules will change before next July, personally I would expect to see the A380 back from the start of the summer 2022 flights at the end of March.

 

[Nethercote2019]

As we all know EK will alter the schedule to fit the demand, more pax wanting to fly will mean more seats for sale, freight revenue is the bonus, mtow is the aim I’m sure, also to be taken into account are there enough 777 to operate flights ?

 

[CL44]

I think Emirates should have enough 777 frames to comply with their requirements. Obviously there are still about 16 (at last count) flying around as "preighters" (what a horrible term that is) which when their seats are back to their normal usage will be able to help fill the gaps. Personally I do not see the 380 coming back fully on line for quite a while yet. Whilst it is my deepest wish for the Airlines to all be back to their normal schedules until and unless the vaccination program kicks in around the world to the same levels as here in the UK I can see restrictions in lace for quite a while yet. Please note that this is not a political statement but merely one of fact.

 

[Brum X]

I think Emirates should have enough 777 frames to comply with their requirements. Obviously there are still about 16 (at last count) flying around as "preighters" (what a horrible term that is) which when their seats are back to their normal usage will be able to help fill the gaps. Personally I do not see the 380 coming back fully on line for quite a while yet. Whilst it is my deepest wish for the Airlines to all be back to their normal schedules until and unless the vaccination program kicks in around the world to the same levels as here in the UK I can see restrictions in lace for quite a while yet. Please note that this is not a political statement but merely one of fact.

Do you think (And be honest) that we will be near normal levels by Summer 2022 ?

 

[Poshgirl]

I know it's not comparing like with like but Qantas said 2023 for return of their A380s. A statement that seems to resonate given the problems in Oz.

Going back to EK, given the sheer scale of their operation pre-Covid, perhaps they are viewed as a barometer for the rest of the industry. As for the word "preighters", I agree it's awful!

 

[JENNYJET]

Used to be called 'Combi' did it not?

 

[Kevin Farnell]

Used to be called 'Combi' did it not?

I think there is a difference. 'Combi' aircraft have their upper deck divided, with a bulkhead, to allow for both freight and passengers on that deck. The freight section will have 'lock-down' points for pallets and a dedicated cargo door. Whereas these 'preighters' are passenger aircraft with seating still in place (or may have the searing removed - but no lock-down points or cargo door), but being used to carry small boxes secured with plastic wrap or similar.
I'm sure that CL44 knows far more about this than I do and I'm happy to be corrected if I'm wrong.

Kevin

 

[smithy108]

Do you think (And be honest) that we will be near normal levels by Summer 2022 ?

I think volumes will be held back until the Near and Far East countries and Australia/NZ fully re-open their borders. Any traffic travelling East through Dubai or any other gateway is going to be heavily restricted. Australia and NZ have pretty much said it will be next year before their borders will be opened at all. I hope I am wrong but cant be too optimistic

 

[Llandudno]

Used to be called 'Combi' did it not?

Are you thinking of the ‘QC’ aircraft? These were often B737s that could be swapped between passenger and freight operations. The ‘QC’ refers to ‘Quick Change’ as the seats could be taken out fairly easily and then the plane used as cargo aircraft.

jet2, having its roots in freight, has several of these aircraft.

 

[Poshgirl]

The 747Combi, much loved by KLM, has freight loaded through door behind left wing. Passengers can board simultaneously at the front. This operation possible because of the stability allowed by the fore and aft arrangement of the wing and body landing gear.

Inside, the dividing partition is locked. Access by crew only. Typical layout diagram on www.boeing-747.com

 

[CL44]

With regards to traffic levels returning to what they were in 2019, I personally feel that this will not happen much before Summer 2022 (if then)! Whilst there are a lot of people out there frantically waving passports and negative test results saying "take my money but get me to a beach" the bucket and spade travellers are not the main targets for the big carriers (apologies to Airlines who dont like that description but tough). Airlines like BA/AA/UA/SQ/CX etc are looking for the business passenger who (on expenses) will lash out for a seat at the front of the aircraft purely to enjoy a fully lay flat bed with catering supplied (not buy on board) with suitable timings to allow travel, meetings and then return. Unfortunately for the Airlines people have now discovered that a large chunk of business can be covered by Zoom / Teams etc removing the requirement for a lot of this type of travel. With the best will in the world larger aircraft taking bucket an spade travellers will not make the amount of money the Airlines need to earn much money. Please bear in mind that the likes of Ryanair / Easyjet etc do not take any cargo which reduces their revenue stream. While I would love to say that the Airlines should be able to click their fingers and say "SHAZAAM" that everything is back to the way it was, I am afraid that this is a pipe dream and we will just have to wait and see what happens.

As for Combi and Preighters, the descriptions above are accurate. Combi (combination) Aircraft were brought in for markets with high cargo requirements but still needing decent availability for passengers. There would be a main deck door and pallet locks available on the floor. They were very popular at one stage with both LH and KL having quite sizeable fleets. When the SAA flight went down (back in the late 80's I think) Airlines started to get a bit wary of them and converted them either to full freighters or back to full passenger operations. If memory serves me right the FAA put the block on any new designs unless the bulkheads were made to be permanent barriers (which of course meant Airlines had to choose a layout and stick with it being unable to either extend or contract subject to requirements). Whilst there are still a few of them flying (mainly 737's in Canada or Military) the days of seeing them on a regular basis at LHR are long gone. Preighters (pretend freighters is the best description I have heard) are literally normal passenger Aircraft with (or without some of the seats) with pallet bases locked into position which are then loose loaded with boxes which are then secured by nets / straps to the pallets to stop the goods shifting during flight. Airlines have also used over head lockers and seat bags to secure cargo. Time consuming to load and unload they were perfect when PPE was the cargo being shifted around the world (or any other light but bulky cargo) as long as what was being moved could fit through the main passenger door! It was (and still is) a good way to keep aircraft running (as they dont like being on the ground for extended periods of time) whilst also earning some very much appreciated revenue for the Airlines operating them.

QC aircraft are a different beast altogether. QC's have a large door for cargo as well as the normal passenger door. The flights would normally run passenger operations during the day and then overnight the seats (which were fixed on compatible pallets) would be removed and the Aircraft used for cargo ops. The following morning the seats would be replaced and then passenger ops resumed. Whilst this kept the Aircraft busy they were not 100% popular with passengers. I heard reports of the cargo door not sealing properly which caused whistling in flight as well as other stories about seats being loose and rattling rather more than normal. LH was a big operator for this type using 737's and believe it or not but UPS had a small fleet of 727's which were used for a similar operation (I believe passenger ops were normally carried out on weekends).

Please forgive the ramblings of an old geezer, you will be glad to know that I had better get back to work.

 

[rollo]

Thank you CL44 great and informative post, didn't Aer Lingus operate the 737QC for a while into BHX back in the mists of time?

 

[CL44]

If memory serves me right the Aer Lingus service was a code share with Lufthansa using an LH 737. I still remember seeing the contour frame for the pallets down at MAS by the old terminal.

 

[Brum X]

MAS, oooooooooooooooooooooh

I can still see those old MAS boarding cards as I boarded a Spantax DC8 to Palma De Mallorca, those were the days.

Now we have Swissport, Menzies etc etc

 

[CL44]

To be fair the Dnata and Swissport cargo stations are blooming good at what they do. I deal with both of them on a daily basis and it is a very rare occasion when between us we cannot solve a problem which normally is not of either of our making.