Cardiff: Qatar Airways, will it return?

[aviatorconcorde]

The BBC put in a freedom of information request about the Welsh Governments marketing deal with Qatar. The request was denied on the premise that it was commercially sensitive. Both Andrew RT Davies and Rhun ap Iorweth want the details of the deal released so they can be assured that the deal Wales is getting is good.
The Welsh government has said that releasing it would likely create an expectation from other companies that they would be entitled to something similar and this bit is slightly interesting though it doesn't refer to airlines just companies
"The release of this information... would place into the public domain highly sensitive and current commercial information which is still being relied upon by the Welsh government in negotiating similar deals with other companies," it said.
"The economy of Wales is interlinked with the success of this deal and its significance and subsequent success cannot be underestimated in this regard."
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-44467495

Was discussing this with a friend earlier and as a non aviation enthusiast and his concern was that what would stop Bristol Airport coming up with a better deal?

Also good to know my licence fee to the BBC is going torwards researching information a scandal can be made out of.

 

[aviatorconcorde]

The BBC put in a freedom of information request about the Welsh Governments marketing deal with Qatar. The request was denied on the premise that it was commercially sensitive. Both Andrew RT Davies and Rhun ap Iorweth want the details of the deal released so they can be assured that the deal Wales is getting is good.
The Welsh government has said that releasing it would likely create an expectation from other companies that they would be entitled to something similar and this bit is slightly interesting though it doesn't refer to airlines just companies
"The release of this information... would place into the public domain highly sensitive and current commercial information which is still being relied upon by the Welsh government in negotiating similar deals with other companies," it said.
"The economy of Wales is interlinked with the success of this deal and its significance and subsequent success cannot be underestimated in this regard."
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-44467495

Was discussing this with a friend earlier and as a non aviation enthusiast his concern was that what would stop Bristol Airport coming up with a better deal?

Also good to know my licence fee to the BBC is going torwards researching information a scandal can be made out of.

 

[Jerry]

Was discussing this with a friend earlier and as a non aviation enthusiast and his concern was that what would stop Bristol Airport coming up with a better deal?

I'd say that it was because the owners of Bristol Airport are there to make a profit not promote the South West to the world unlike the Welsh Government who'd job it is to promote Wales. If the airport was still in private hands then i'd imagine the Welsh Government would try and do something similar with Qatar. Also from the WGs point of view it's not just about the airline and passenger numbers but opening up Wales too investment opportunities from say the Qatar Government's investment arm. If i remember correctly in 2011 Delta Airlines apparently wanted something similar i believe and the WG at the time turned them down i'm led to believe. According to a post on the Delta thread the support costs for a Delta service from CWL to JFK from the Welsh Route Development fund would've been £1,740,000 over 3 years for a 757 service that wouldn't be able to take much cargo and then boost welsh exports and maybe more importantly help attract inward investment as much as a ME3 route maybe.
https://www.forums4airports.com/threads/2209/#post-124599

Also good to know my licence fee to the BBC is going torwards researching information a scandal can be made out of.

Been so much good news about the airport lately the BBC must want to balance it out with some negative news!

 

[Bcn_boy]

RT Davies has resigned. A good result in my opinion, particularly after the Airbus debacle.

 

[Jerry]

After the UK government rejected the Swansea Lagoon they probably left him with little choice as he backed that. So now that leaves only Leanne Wood left as the other parties are looking for leaders.

Going back to Qatar i forgot to mention in the post before that the Welsh government might release the details of the marketing deal in the future after I'd have thought it expires. I also wonder if when Aston Martin starts production then maybe we'll see a regular freighter as well.

 

[aviatorconcorde]

After the UK government rejected the Swansea Lagoon they probably left him with little choice as he backed that. So now that leaves only Leanne Wood left as the other parties are looking for leaders.

I also think it's time for her to go. Didn't she say if she's not FM in the next election she will resign? She's likley to seek independence and people will not want that.

Is 2020 our next WAG election?

 

[TheLocalYokel]

Was discussing this with a friend earlier and as a non aviation enthusiast and his concern was that what would stop Bristol Airport coming up with a better deal?

Also good to know my licence fee to the BBC is going torwards researching information a scandal can be made out of.

The difference seems to be that the WG-owned Cardiff Airport company is not meeting the cost of the two-year deal with Qatar (unless the BBC report is poorly drafted). It's coming directly from the WG itself, therefore it won't appear as part of the airport company's expenditure which will help the drive towards profitability. The same thing occurred with the airport-city shuttle bus which was funded by the WG itself and not through their airport company.

As far as BRS is concerned their shuttle bus (A1 Bristol Airport Flyer) was commenced over 20 years ago by the airport itself that took on the cost and risk and this applies today (the A1 like the A3 to Weston-s-Mare - the latter is almost cetainly loss-making at present - is operated under contract for the airport by First Group). There is no government money available to support a BRS Middle East venture so that would have to be done by the airport itself from its own funds.

From a conversation I had just before Christmas with a senior BRS figure they are aware of the 'extracurricular' help that the CWL airport company receives from the WG and they believe that some at least is probably bordering on illegal state aid. The person would not be drawn on why the BRS owners are keeping their powder dry over this. I suspect it's because any challenge to the EC would take time, might not succeed and anyway with Brexit looming the future state of UK competition legislation is uncertain.

I wonder whether, if WG funding had been the sole reason why Qatar went to CWL, the BRS owners might have been more inclined to ask for the funding to be investigated. From my conversation with the figure mentioned in the previous paragraph there were other reasons, one operational in particular, why Qatar did not look at BRS.

Whilst it's true that confidential commercial considerations apply to the extent of the funding being revealed publicly, it's also a convenient shield for the WG to conceal the amount of its support for Qatar. I'm not having a pop at the WG per se; all governments would do the same if it suited them.

Incidentally, I sometimes wonder how CWL would be faring now if the people of Wales had not voted for an assembly by the narrowest of margins (0.3% of those who voted) in 1997. I can't imagine the Welsh Office of the Westminster Government (of any of the main political parties) would have purchased the airport and then supported it as the WG has done/is doing.

 

[Jerry]

The difference seems to be that the WG-owned Cardiff Airport company is not meeting the cost of the two-year deal with Qatar (unless the BBC report is poorly drafted). It's coming directly from the WG itself, therefore it won't appear as part of the airport company's expenditure which will help the drive towards profitability. The same thing occurred with the airport-city shuttle bus which was funded by the WG itself and not through their airport company.

That surely is just the regional government trying to promote it's area? It happens all across the EU, it's the Welsh Governments job to promote Wales and a marketing agreement with an airline like Qatar is part of that considering their global network not just passenger wise but cargo wise as well. Any deal will help increase tourism into Wales and economically to promote Welsh produce.

From a conversation I had just before Christmas with a senior BRS figure they are aware of the 'extracurricular' help that the CWL airport company receives from the WG and they believe that some at least is probably bordering on illegal state aid. The person would not be drawn on why the BRS owners are keeping their powder dry over this. I suspect it's because any challenge to the EC would take time, might not succeed and anyway with Brexit looming the future state of UK competition legislation is uncertain.

What would BRS do if Wales was an independent country or fully autonomous from Westminster? If it was the Welsh government would have a lot more tools to work with than they do now.
Also if they did challenge any Cardiff Airport deal and claim illegal state aid it could lead to a tit for tat between them and Cardiff Airport/WG concerning BRS's own deals with it's own airlines and end up with a lot of bad PR for BRS and bad blood between the airports. It would probably be a costly legal exercise for very little gain. The reality is whatever the Welsh Government does it's not going to effect BRS's growth or take any airlines away from them like Easyjet or Ryanair.

Incidentally, I sometimes wonder how CWL would be faring now if the people of Wales had not voted for an assembly by the narrowest of margins (0.3% of those who voted) in 1997. I can't imagine the Welsh Office of the Westminster Government (of any of the main political parties) would have purchased the airport and then supported it as the WG has done/is doing.

There probably wouldn't be a CWL or one with any significant route network. The UK government has never really had Wales best interest as a priority so only god knows what Wales would be like without it's own devolved government.

 

[TheLocalYokel]

That surely is just the regional government trying to promote it's area? It happens all across the EU, it's the Welsh Governments job to promote Wales and a marketing agreement with an airline like Qatar is part of that considering their global network not just passenger wise but cargo wise as well. Any deal will help increase tourism into Wales and economically to promote Welsh produce.

No argument with that but it's the degree that can run foul of EU state aid rules. We don't know how much the WG has provided in this case but the EC would be able to ascertain the amount if a complaint was made, and eventually adjudicate on its legality.

There was a long-running dispute involving Ryanair and the publicly-owned Charleroi Airport (and other airports in Europe that paid over public money) over inducements provided to the airline (and other airlines) by the airports. Originally the EC ruled they were illegal payments but this was overturned by the European Court of Justice leading to the EC revising its decision. Ryanair did not have to repay the money but the EC ruled that payments made by a small German airport to airlines was illegal state aid and airlines had to repay the money they'd been given.

What would BRS do if Wales was an independent country or fully autonomous from Westminster? If it was the Welsh government would have a lot more tools to work with than they do now.
Also if they did challenge any Cardiff Airport deal and claim illegal state aid it could lead to a tit for tat between them and Cardiff Airport/WG concerning BRS's own deals with it's own airlines and end up with a lot of bad PR for BRS and bad blood between the airports. It would probably be a costly legal exercise for very little gain. The reality is whatever the Welsh Government does it's not going to effect BRS's growth or take any airlines away from them like Easyjet or Ryanair.

If Wales was an independent country within the EU it would still be subject to the state aid rules.

A privately-owned airport such as BRS can provide whatever inducements it thinks fit to airlines so cannot breach state aid rules. If the officers of a privately-owned airport company act recklessly by paying over the odds they face censure by their shareholders and in the worst case could be disqualified from acting as directors of any company.

The point is that owners and officers of a private sector airport have to behave prudently if their company is not to go to the wall. Publicly-owned airports or publicly-owned anything don't face the same strictures so they might from political or other motives spend money that a prudent private company could not and would not in order to achieve a particular goal. The state aid rules are in force to ensure a fair and level playing field between competing private and public interests.

 

[Jerry]

No argument with that but it's the degree that can run foul of EU state aid rules. We don't know how much the WG has provided in this case but the EC would be able to ascertain the amount if a complaint was made, and eventually adjudicate on its legality.

Obviously we don't know the details of any deal but i'd have thought that the Welsh government would've made sure that it was within EU rules and stand up to scruntiny because the Qatar Airways route is too importnant to mess up like that.

 

[CWL94]

QR goes back to daily from Mon 24th June 2019!

 

[Jerry]

QR goes back to daily from Mon 24th June 2019!

Is it 6 weekly up until then?

 

[Jerry]

I had a quick look myself and it appears it's 6 weekly for April and May then goes 5 weekly until going back to daily from the 24th June.

 

[CWL94]

TUI are now selling packages from CWL to Thailand, Sri Lanka and Bali using QR flights!

 

[Tinkerman]

That’s the best news for this route in quite a long time ... The exposure that TUI will give to this service is next to none for that sort of traffic, and should provide it with a welcome boost.

 

[mathers_wales_uk]

TUI are now selling packages from CWL to Thailand, Sri Lanka and Bali using QR flights!

I'm not sure if this has been spotted previously however it also appears they offer New York packages via KLM too

 

[Foxlimayankee]

https://airwaysmag.com/airlines/flamboyant-qatar-airways-targets-250-destinations-by-2022/

Can only be a positive thing for CWL to boost connection demand.

 

[TheLocalYokel]

I'm not sure if this has been spotted previously however it also appears they offer New York packages via KLM too

https://airwaysmag.com/airlines/flamboyant-qatar-airways-targets-250-destinations-by-2022/

Can only be a positive thing for CWL to boost connection demand.

The 2022 World Cup will be a massive opportunity for Qatar and everything associated with the state including the airline to put itself in the shop window of the world. There is probably no single event with a broader worldwide appeal than the World Cup. The Olympics cover many sports and are more fragmented.

 

[Jerry]

Interesting comment from the Qatar Airways CEO.
“Cardiff is still not performing as we expected it to perform. We are giving it time. We are hoping Cardiff will come around, passenger-wise. Air freight-wise, it’s doing absolutely well – there’s a lot of air-freight demand in and out of Cardiff.”
https://www.independent.co.uk/trave...assenger-numbers-akbar-al-baker-a8450646.html

 

[aviatorconcorde]

Interesting comment from the Qatar Airways CEO.
“Cardiff is still not performing as we expected it to perform. We are giving it time. We are hoping Cardiff will come around, passenger-wise. Air freight-wise, it’s doing absolutely well – there’s a lot of air-freight demand in and out of Cardiff.”
https://www.independent.co.uk/trave...assenger-numbers-akbar-al-baker-a8450646.html

Very unusual for an airline CEO to come out and say this. Looks to me it’s something to get more leverage off the Welsh government for a better deal/package.

I’ve had first hand experience of poor loads on a flight out of LHR and first hand experience of good loads on a flight into Cardiff.