Route Development & Rumours

[nwoody2001]

Why doesn't Cathey at BHX give you confidence?

According to the website, the people in attendance from BHX are...

• Andrew Pelham, Aviation Development Manager, Birmingham Airport
• Adam Parker, Senior Aviation Manager, Birmingham Airport

 

[IanFarquharson]

Why doesn't Cathey at BHX give you confidence?

According to the website, the people in attendance from BHX are...

• Andrew Pelham, Aviation Development Manager, Birmingham Airport
• Adam Parker, Senior Aviation Manager, Birmingham Airport

Interesting !

 

[Birmingham Aviation]

Interesting !

How come Barton Never attends these events given that he is chief of the airport

 

[nwoody2001]

How come Barton Never attends these events given that he is chief of the airport

Because he has an airport to run... What's the point of the airport having an Aviation Development Team otherwise!?

If there is a crash landing that he has to oversea, a terrorist incident, weather disruption, not having your CEO in the same timezone or continent is a little pointless.

 

[thunderchild]

If there is a crash landing that he has to oversea, a terrorist incident, weather disruption, not having your CEO in the same timezone or continent is a little pointless.

Or if you’re the CEO of LHR you just sleep through it all!

 

[nwoody2001]

Well let's look at other European airports that they serve, how long has it taken for them to reach pre pandemic capacity, some have been abandoned altogether, if a route was to materialise I'd put Hong Kong Airlines on it

So to be clear... You think Hong Kong Airlines - an airline that currently doesn't offer ANY direct flights to Europe - and doesn't have flights outside of Asia other than 1x route to Canada and 2x routes to Australia is more likely to serve BHX-HKG than Cathey, an airline that currently flies direct to 12 European cities, two of which are in the UK??? Or am I missing something???

 

[IanFarquharson]

How come Barton Never attends these events given that he is chief of the airport

As CEO he would more important things to do rtaher than attending these events, the RD Team (albeit a bit depleated) develop and maintain the relationships with the airlines.

 

[KARFA]

Or if you’re the CEO of LHR you just sleep through it all!

this is off topic, but tbh any large company whose disaster response relies on the ceo being awake and present is frankly a crap plan. you are setting yourself up for failure if the ceo is essential - all response decisions (at least within the first 24 hours) should be able to be taken and executed by people a lot further down. so no i don't buy it that a ceo of a airport can't travel overseas or be out of touch. ceos should never be taking day to day operational decisions in a large company - they are there to take strategic longer term decisions.

 

[Birmingham Aviation]

I

As CEO he would more important things to do rtaher than attending these events, the RD Team (albeit a bit depleated) develop and maintain the relationships with the airlines.

Are there any specific that you know of that they would want to talk to

 

[nwoody2001]

They have to start from somewhere, Cathay have 6 daily flights to the UK, BA serve HKG daily, thats 7 daily flights, if CX decided to serve BHX there simply wouldn't be the demand, and with Cathay short on crew and aircraft, it's too much of a risk

I'm not sure I understand that logic to be honest.

Demand tends to be based on routes, not airlines. If there is not demand to operate BHX-HKG with Cathey, there is unlikely to be demand for Hong Kong Airlines to operate the route either. The only other factor would be demand for onward connections, and with Cathey carrying 22.8m pax through HKG vs. Hong Kong Airlines carrying 4.8m pax through HKG (figs from 2024) , I suspect Cathey would stimulate much more demand for onward connections than Hong Kong Airlines ever could.

Now I'm not saying Cathey are about to launch from BHX however much I wish they would, but if i was going to put money which was more likely to arrive at BHX, I know where my money is going!

 

[Birmingham Aviation]

I'm not sure I understand that logic to be honest.

Demand tends to be based on routes, not airlines. If there is not demand to operate BHX-HKG with Cathey, there is unlikely to be demand for Hong Kong Airlines to operate the route either. The only other factor would be demand for onward connections, and with Cathey carrying 22.8m pax through HKG vs. Hong Kong Airlines carrying 4.8m pax through HKG (figs from 2024) , I suspect Cathey would stimulate much more demand for onward connections than Hong Kong Airlines ever could.

Now I'm not saying Cathey are about to launch from BHX however much I wish they would, but if i was going to put money which was more likely to arrive at BHX, I know where my money is going!

So what airline are u thinking that is next at bhx to appear on the terminal?

 

[nwoody2001]

this is off topic, but tbh any large company whose disaster response relies on the ceo being awake and present is frankly a crap plan. you are setting yourself up for failure if the ceo is essential - all response decisions (at least within the first 24 hours) should be able to be taken and executed by people a lot further down. so no i don't buy it that a ceo of a airport can't travel overseas or be out of touch. ceos should never be taking day to day operational decisions in a large company - they are there to take strategic longer term decisions.

If you think a CEO being available to respond to disasters or severe disruption is part of day to day operational decisions, I think we have very different ideas of what running an airport is like.

 

[gulftraveller]

They have to start from somewhere, Cathay have 6 daily flights to the UK, BA serve HKG daily, thats 7 daily flights, if CX decided to serve BHX there simply wouldn't be the demand, and with Cathay short on crew and aircraft, it's too much of a risk

I suspect they would restore LGW before anything else but CX has ruled this out, for the short term at least. When the talks with BHX were allegedly starting, CX had major crewing issues and I believe that continues.

 

[KARFA]

If you think a CEO being available to respond to disasters or severe disruption is part of day to day operational decisions, I think we have very different ideas of what running an airport is like.

The two points were separate. However, I don’t think you understand what a CEO’s role is in a large organisation.

However, the point is any disaster plan should be on the basis that a ceo is unavailable for at least 24 hours if not the first 48 hours. A disaster plan that only functions with the presence of a ceo to take all decisions is frankly written by someone who doesn’t understand how these things unfold. It is pretty much inevitable that a ceo won’t be immediately available for a host of reasons. Trust people below you to do what’s right within a framework you have already set as the ceo.

People who write articles saying “the ceo slept through the night and wasn’t woken” show they know nothing about disaster planning. Frankly as long as the disaster management group are empowered to take all decisions, that would be a sign of a good plan.

Anyway, this is going off topic so I will leave it here.

 

[nwoody2001]

Well regardless, of the 21x UK airports attending World Routes, Hong Kong in 2025, only 2x Airport CEO's from those airports are listed as attending

 

[Jon Dempsey]

As CEO he would more important things to do rtaher than attending these events, the RD Team (albeit a bit depleated) develop and maintain the relationships with the airlines.

To pay a visit rather than attend would show intent.

 

[KARFA]

I will say that for quite a few countries in asia the culture is that they want to see the senior partner or ceo - yes they know that person won't be doing the work or negotiating the details of an agreement, but it is a sign of respect. this is a difference between US/european culture.

if i were negotiating with a company in Korea/China/Japan in particular, i would definitely want the presence of the senior patner/ceo. it underlines to them that you are serious and are showing the proper respect. i have seen it far too many times when only mid level managers are involved - the other side nods and smiles and all seems good but nothing ends up happening.

i don't know if BHX are having serious talks with HKA or another airline based in that part of the world. but if they were i would definitely be getting the ceo on a plane to meet their ceo and have a meeting. however, it may be that at World Routes thing there wouldn't be much point.

 

[Ray Finkle]

Based purely on what I have heard (and ONLY those involved will know for sure) talks have happened/are happening with Cathay and it seems as if interest is there. However, I get the impression that IF anything happens it won't be anytime soon. I think we're talking medium term on this one.

 

[IanFarquharson]

BHX needs to get pax levels to 15m then it becomes a large airport, this terminology is used by Routes conference, until then we are a classed as a small airport.

 

[nwoody2001]

I will say that for quite a few countries in asia the culture is that they want to see the senior partner or ceo - yes they know that person won't be doing the work or negotiating the details of an agreement, but it is a sign of respect. this is a difference between US/european culture.

if i were negotiating with a company in Korea/China/Japan in particular, i would definitely want the presence of the senior patner/ceo. it underlines to them that you are serious and are showing the proper respect. i have seen it far too many times when only mid level managers are involved - the other side nods and smiles and all seems good but nothing ends up happening.

i don't know if BHX are having serious talks with HKA or another airline based in that part of the world. but if they were i would definitely be getting the ceo on a plane to meet their ceo and have a meeting. however, it may be that at World Routes thing there wouldn't be much point.

I don't doubt that is the case, and I don't doubt Nick Barton meets many prospective airlines to attract them to come to BHX, especially when it comes to negotiations and sealing the deals. But that's not what World Routes is about.

When an event is attended by 250 airlines and a similar number of airports over the course of 3 days with speech's, workshops, tours, this is all about introductions, connections, profile building. Deals are not started, negotiated and signed in the space of a 3 day event. They will takes years to agree, and conferences like this are a tiny - but important - part of that process.