Airline and Airport Correspondence

[TheLocalYokel]

Re: Suggested New BHX Routes for 2011

Hassaan,

There is a discussion on another part of the BHX forum concerning the airport's current situation.

BHX is going through a period of stagnation, compared with a number of other UK airports, partly because it fared better, or perhaps not as badly would be a better way of expressing it, in the recession than many and some of the others have some catching up to do to get themselves into the position they used to be relative to BHX.

Others have told you here on forums4airports and on other aviation web sites that it's not just a question of telling airlines you have a petition supported by x number of people to commence a particular route. Airlines have access to all sorts of statistics that usually give them a good idea whether route A will work and route B might.

BHX has a big enough catchment to support some of the routes you suggest EXCEPT that it is sandwiched between Europe's biggest airport and the UK's biggest regional airport.

BHX suffers because it is just too close to London. When the lack of runway capacity really begins to bite at LHR it might have a positive impact on BHX. The government has said more than once that it sees BHX as ideally situated to take some of the displaced traffic from LHR. That's all right for a government to say but airlines are businesses and unless government provides substantial financial inducements in one form or another things may not work out as the government envisages.

What might happen is that smaller airlines operating shorter haul and some thinner long haul routes might be the ones who for one reason or another will be the ones pushed out or bought out of LHR. It would then remain to be seen how they react to losing their UK home in the capital.

I like BHX as an airport. It's user-friendly and when I've been through it, admittedly on two occasions out of peak time, it was a delight to use. From a personal point of view I would love to see a competitor to Emirates flying to the Middle East, and Qatar would have been the perfect choice.

It seems though that it's not going to happen in the short term. Never say never about anything in aviation because even the so-called experts often have difficulty in calling the future correctly.

 

[Hassaan]

Re: Suggested New BHX Routes for 2011

I'll take all of that on board, but are there any long-haul airlines that you believe BHX could get?

 

[Aviador]

Re: Suggested New BHX Routes for 2011

The long haul services already in place will eventually provide a catalyst for future growth but these things can take time. Airlines do watch what their competitors are doing and they do take note. For example, here at Leeds, the airport had pressed for certain long haul flights for years with little success. Similarly to Birmingham the runway here at Leeds is a little on the short side. In fact the runway is a similar length to that at BHX minus the starter strips, which do help BHX to some extent.

A few years back an airline called Swefly decided to take the plunge and operates flights to Lahore in Pakistan from LBA. Unfortunately the airline ran out of funds to operate their flights and it went into administration and eventually ceased trading.

The Pakistan based airline Shaheen Air International had seen the potential for flights between Pakistan and Leeds Bradford and it later commenced flights direct to Islamabad. The flight was operated by a leased A310-300 aircraft. Unfortunately the lease on the aircraft ran out and the airline was unable to source the right aircraft to operate the flights.

Hot on the heels of Shaheen Air leaving LBA, Pakistan International Airlines moved onto the route and has been at LBA ever since. So as you can see, airlines do watch and take notice of what other airlines are doing but it's such a risky business many airlines are not prepared to take on additional risks of setting up new bases.

 

[User0001]

Re: Suggested New BHX Routes for 2011

Well, when it comes to new long haul, you basically have 4 options:

1)Try your best to tempt anyone and everyone to serve BHX, with incentives and subsidies.
2)Attract new start ups and airlines that dont serve other UK points
3)Attract competition on exsisting routes
4)Attract transit flights

Birmingham seems to have had a huge emhasis on option 2 so far. The failed airlines such as Air Syhlet, Flywho, Duo, Hellenic and so on seem to have proved fruitless, and so far Armavia has been a huge flop.
Manchester seems to go for a mix of 3/4, for example:
3)competition is rife at MAN due to the fact we have EK/EY/QR all 2 daily each, we have RYR/EZY/JLS/ZB/WW all competing for Loco, and then you have LH/KL/LX/SK/AY piling in capacity to offer business routes
4)MAN offers some very good incentives for carriers who offer 5th Freedom to the USA/canada.

So, who can BHX attract?

Well:
India: AI would be good for the ATQ connections, but with everything going via DEL now, they seem to have alienated themselves from that market. Jet have pinned their flag to the MAN mast, and Kingfisher are in the oneworld alliance now, so may only go to airports where a large oneworl presense exsists.
Pakistan: Maybe a 3 weekly Airblue service once more aircraft come online. I have to admit, I didnt think they would last 5 minutes up against PK at MAN (especially with the TRZ tech stop), but they really have held their own and are going back to 5 weekly this summer.
Middle east: This is a political hotbed at the moment, so Bahrain is out of the question, and rumblings of tension in Saudi Arabia means those two could be no go's. EY/QR have pinned their flag to MAN/LHR only in the UK, so hard to see who you could attract out of here. Maybe try and poach the Kuwait Airways KWI-LHR-JFK off LHR?
Asia: I think BHX need to be realistic and say that this area is a no go for a while. CX only seem to like the big airports, Hanian are a focusing on Europe, SQ would never come to BHX, and BHX have p&%sed off Air Asia X when their A340 diverted from STn, so, lets be honest, not a lot of growth from there.
Africa: Maybe get RAM to offer Cassablanca/Marrakech as a charter destination, but at the moment, you arnt going to get much growth in Northern africa, and South Africa has been a no go for any UK regional airport really. Many airlines have tried and failed, so that is off the cards
USA/Canada: Maybe get more Air transat flights, but as for the USA, BHX has historically proven it can only manage one flight a day to the USA, as any additional frequency/route has subsiquently failed (AA, US and CO 2nd daily). Maybe you could get more charters to SFB and possibly LAS, but that would be it in my opinion.

To be honest, BHX is just sandwiched too much between 2 big airports, so the catchment has easy options to get to either MAN/LHR. There is no doubt a some of MAN's sucess has been at the expense of BHX, but unfortunatly, thats the way business goes. Airlines will go where the money is.

 

[Hassaan]

Re: Suggested New BHX Routes for 2011

Well at the moment, i'm just emailing regular airlines to see what they think about starting BHX. I've email Qatar once again, i've emailed Virgin Atlantic, Royal Jordanian and Kuwait Airways. In terms of aircraft, I didn't mention any equipment, taking on board what you said above, but my predictions would be:

- A333 from Virgin
- 772, A343 or A332 from Kuwait
- A310 or A332 from RJ
- A332 from Qatar

I also emailed PIA to suggest increasing frequency from 4x weekly to 7x weekly. Would it be possible for them to add transit flights now the B772LR's are in service? All transit's are going through MAN now. I don't know if AI could operate a B773 from India directly to Birmingham, as it's probably going to be completely full. The Indian population in MAN is not as large as BHX, so why would they be starting Jet Airways operations there? It'd be more profitable for BHX.

 

[User0001]

Re: Suggested New BHX Routes for 2011

Im going to put you out of your misery with a few:

-Virgin have said that other than MAN-LAS, there will be NO expansion this year, and also have said that whilst BHX is a good diversion point for them, the market demographics are not there to operate scheduled services.
-Kuwait airways dont have an A332, so thats a no-no, and also, the B772 is too much plane for them on a BHX routing.
-Royal jordainian- Id steer clear of them for the time being, too much going on in the middle east at the moment.
-Qatar-Its already been discussed over and over, they dont want to come to BHX, hence why they have said travellers from the midlands are to use MAN.
-PIA only have rights for 5 weekly 5th freedom flights to the US, 3 of them are on MAN-JFK, and 2 of them are on BCN-ORD, so you have absalutly no chance whatsoever of them choosing BHX for that. They are adding 2 weekly MAN-IAH soon, but a B772 to IAH would never get off BHX's runway without a significant payload restriction. Also, PIA are having major issues at the moment, so for the time being, they will not take any considerations for new routes, other than HOU due it being planned by them for a year or so.

If I was you hassan, Id go after airlines that serve Europe and leave long haul well alone for the time being. BHX desperatly needs links to LIS/MAD/VIE/SXF/CGN more than long haul routes, so get in touch with the likes of Ryanair, Easyjet, Jet2, bmibaby and the Euro-hubbers, as long haul is a lost cause to BHX at the moment.

At the end of the day, if BHX cant even secure a link to the likes of MAD with RYR, then what hope has it of an A340 to Kuwait!

 

[Hassaan]

Re: Suggested New BHX Routes for 2011

That's a good idea. I'll contact those airlines and hear their response, before trying a couple of long-haul airlines that actually have a chance of doing well at BHX.

 

[CL44]

Re: Suggested New BHX Routes for 2011

Asia: I think BHX need to be realistic and say that this area is a no go for a while. CX only seem to like the big airports, Hanian are a focusing on Europe, SQ would never come to BHX, and BHX have p&%sed off Air Asia X when their A340 diverted from STn, so, lets be honest, not a lot of growth from there.

To be honest, BHX is just sandwiched too much between 2 big airports, so the catchment has easy options to get to either MAN/LHR. There is no doubt a some of MAN's sucess has been at the expense of BHX, but unfortunatly, thats the way business goes. Airlines will go where the money is.

I did not realise BHX had hacked AirAsia off when their flight diverted in. What happened (if this is not suitable for a public forum please PM me)?

While there are a heck of a lot if Airlines that I would like to see flying into BHX, I appreciate that Airlines have got a business model to work from (both good and bad). I would like to send my thanks to you for your concise and detailed evaluations that have been posted on this site. While I am aware of various things relating to how Airlines are thinking at the moment you have shown me a different perspective (for which I am grateful for).

While I do not post on these forums on a regular basis (normally only on subjects that either directly affect me or a subject that I have an interest in) I must admit I do enjoy seeing your posts.

 

[User0001]

Re: Suggested New BHX Routes for 2011

Hi CL44.

Im not allowed to say what happened with Air Asia, just that Tony Fernandes was very unhappy and vowed never to use BHX again.

You never know, in a few years once LHR is maxed out, and STN/LGW cant handle the overspill, then maybe BHX can come into its own.
Unfortunatly for them, its just in the wrong place at the wrong time (between 2 large airports at a time of political/financial instability)

 

[Hassaan]

Re: Suggested New BHX Routes for 2011

Factoring world_rep's advice, I contacted Kuwait Airways and Easyjet to suggest adding more routes out and in of Birmingham. My reply from Kuwait Airways was:

Dear Valued Passenger,

Thank you for your email.

We appreciate your suggestion. Kindly note that we have passed your suggestion to the concerned department for consideration.

Kuwait Airways now offers online check-in, seat selection, meal preferences and other choices on the website.
Please visit our website regularly for latest news, updates and promotions.

Yours sincerely,

Kuwait Airways Corporation
www.kuwaitairways.com

My reply from Easyjet was:

1st March 2011

Dear Mr Mohammad,

Thank you for contacting us.

Thank you for your e-mail suggesting that we operate a route to Birmingham and Madrid & Lisbon.

As you know, easyJet do not fly between Birmingham and Madrid & Lisbon at present but we are always grateful for comments and suggestions from our passengers and are constantly looking for routes that would be in demand all year round.

I would suggest that you register for easyJet e-mail updates on the easyJet web site. As well as advising of new routes, this will also give advance notice of the schedule release dates and information on exclusive Internet fare discounts.

If you would like to receive such e-mails, please go to the ‘my easyJet.com’ section at the top of our homepage, scroll down and click on ‘sign up now’ and enter your e-mail address and password. I have included a link to this section;

http://www.easyjet.com/EN/Members/

Once again, thank you for your suggestion we will certainly consider adding this route to the easyJet network.

I do hope I have been able to answer your question fully. To update your query, please reply to this e-mail. We will be happy to assist you further.

Yours sincerely,

Sunil
Customer Service Representative

At least you know now what they think. Many airlines say this kind of thing when I contact them but Easyjet may be considered and Kuwait, unsure.

 

[Hassaan]

Re: Suggested New BHX Routes for 2011

Kuwait airways dont have an A332, so thats a no-no, and also, the B772 is too much plane for them on a BHX routing.

I must have mixed it up with RJ, but a 772, are you saying there isn't enough demand or too large? The A343 is the other option for them if they ever consider it.

I did not realise BHX had hacked AirAsia off when their flight diverted in. What happened (if this is not suitable for a public forum please PM me)?

Now that's one thing I haven't heard about before, what happened? I'd also want to know since it sounds interesting.

AI would be good for the ATQ connections, but with everything going via DEL now, they seem to have alienated themselves from that market. Jet have pinned their flag to the MAN mast, and Kingfisher are in the oneworld alliance now, so may only go to airports where a large oneworl presense exsists.

An article in the BirminghamPost today explains quite a lot about direct flights to India returning this year: http://www.birminghammail.net/news/top- ... -28276270/

Maybe try and poach the Kuwait Airways KWI-LHR-JFK off LHR?

I just wonder if there would be demand. If I could email the airline and suggest to them that they permanently move that service to BHX because there is more demand... Maybe not but LHR has enough routes to JFK and if BHX has given up a popular route in the past (Air India), I'm sure LHR can handle it.

I've tried to get transit flights and domestic flights. I think it'd be good to contact any airline that could potentially fit in here.

 

[User0001]

Re: Suggested New BHX Routes for 2011

Hassan13

RE the article you attached in your last post, Air India will not be making a hub out of BHX, the idea of a euro-hub was dropped long ago, but, I have some news that may please you..

Air India are to introduce DEL-MAN daily and DEL-BHX 3 weekly.

Should be announced soon.

 

[Hassaan]

Re: Suggested New BHX Routes for 2011

Well, the article states:

But Mr Kehoe said talks were ongoing to bring the direct connection back. He said the airport was among the contenders to become Air India’s new hub for European flights.

The move could create scores of jobs and help fill spare capacity at Birmingham.

A decision is expected later this year

Air India is keen to move its European hub and we are in the mix to pick that up

Maybe the decision for a Euro-hub has been rethought?

Anyway, I'm still trying to contact airlines, long-haul and short-haul to interest them in starting BHX. I've written these airlines a long email as to why they should operate at BHX. I did Air India last week, but they appear to be starting anyway. Did they take my suggestion on board?

This is what i've tried so far:

- PIA to increase ISB-BHX from 4 weekly to daily
- US Airways to retry PHL-BHX
- Easyjet to start flights from BHX-MAD/LIS
- Kuwait flying KWI-BHX
- Delta flying ATL-BHX
- AA flying ORD-BHX
- Etihad flying AUH-BHX
- Gulf Air flying Bahrain-BHX
- Qatar flying DOH-BHX
- Air China flying PEK-BHX

Many of these won't work but i'll look into their responses.

 

[User0001]

Re: Suggested New BHX Routes for 2011

Hassan,

May I point you to the route shop. (just type therouteshop into google and the site will come up.)

BHX actually has a profile on there of the routes they would like.

Im afraid out of all your suggestions, the only one I *could* see happening is PIA increasing ISB, but not to daily, maybe 5 weekly, as even MAN-ISB is only 5 weekly on PIA, and there is a much much larger catchment to serve up here.

-US airways wont touch BHX with a bargepole after what happened that summer they served BHX
-Etihad/Qatar have just increased MAN, and with 4-5 daily flights from LHR, BHX is just in the wrong place.
-Air China, I have spoken to them myself (face to face), and they said MAN could be online in 2012, and they wont come to BHX until they see the results of MAN.
-Gulf Air wont be doing anything for the time being, given what is happening in Bahrain
-Delta have no interest in the UK beyond LHR/MAN. Even LGW will be chopped once LHR slots are freed up.
-Kuwait seem to be happy with just LHR, but have previously said only MAN tkes their fancy (hence why the KU B744 visits us from time to time)
-Easyjet, I dont know too much about them, but given what happened to EMA, they dont seem interested in the Midlands beyond BHX-GVA/GNB.

Like I say, check out that website I mentioned.

A tip from me too, why not focus all your efforts on gaining one route, say, BHX-MAD, rather than one-off emails to every airline.
If you concentrated on one route, you could:

-Find out what BHX will offer a new airline (subsidies, slots etc)
-canvas local business to see who would use the survey (a petition is pointless because, people can sign the petition but it doesnt mean they will use it.)
-Find out how many use the route (for MAD example, find out how many went BHX-FRA-MAD, BHX-BRU-MAD and so on, and also the reverse figures like MAD-FRA-BHX and so on.) This way, you have concrete evidence of who is using the service.
-Check random websites and find prices of a route. That way, you can show an airline ''people are willing to pay £200 to fly BHX-MAD via AMS'' and so on.

Dont suggest a frequency or equipment or timings. Airlines themseves, if interested in a route, will decide that for themselves. They will not take you too seriously if you start stating ''a route should be 4 weekly on a B777-300'', as airlines dont like you telling them how to run their business. Also, even with the evidence you collect, how do you know a route will work?

Hope that helps

 

[pug]

Re: Suggested New BHX Routes for 2011

Worldrep. Ive already pointed hassaan in the direction of routeshop, seems to have landed on deaf ears though. It may have changed but i dont remember any long-haul rotes being on the wish list....

 

[User0001]

Re: Suggested New BHX Routes for 2011

Hi Pug,

No BHX still doesnt have long haul routes on their profile, just short haul city destinations. In my opinion though, its better as its more realistic, lets face it, QR and EY have firmly let it be known where their future lies, and the American carriers seem to be retreating to LHR/MAN.
The future of BHX longhaul is EK and PIA, with maybe AI and then the random airlines connecting the dots via their hubs (W5/Armavia etc)

 

[Hassaan]

Birmingham Airport News 2011

''TK to upgrade to an A320 from a B738''

Im sorry to be my pessimestic self, but its not an upgrade, its a downgrade. The B738 holds 155 whilst the A320 only holds 143 (in the TK fleet). Not a huge difference, but less seats all the same.

Ah, thanks for reminding me. If I could edit that to 'downgrade'. Must have made a mistake. I do think an A332 would be better if the route was going to increase to daily.

Also, the Air Transat flight is going to be weekly rather than twice weekly, and Monarch will also be operating a weekly flight to Toronto from BHX starting April. This is possibly because a weekly A332 handles the demand, a 6x weekly BHX-YYZ on an AI 772 didn't do very well in loads, this being the BHX-YYZ leg of the DEL-ATQ-BHX-YYZ service.

Anyone have any more info on Air India? We already know that the A332 will be taken off another route to be replaced by the 772/3. Maybe a half/full 773 can't make it DEL-BHX non-stop, 772 is the largest aircraft to be able to do that but I could be wrong.

 

[User0001]

Re: Birmingham Airport News 2011

Hiya Hassan

TK wont upgrade to an A332 as well as upgrade to daily, thats just too much extra capacity in one goo. Maybe because it could be going to daily, thats why the A320 has been introduced, so not to flood BHX with capacity it cant fill.
Also, IIRK, loads on TK are around the 50-60% mark, which is not good, so no chance of an A330 anyway.

As for Air India, they seem to change their plans on a weekly basis. Now they seem to be playing with the 'DUB as a Euro hub' idea again (which in my opinion is the worst idea since the Americans thought George Bush would make a good president), but, I will try and find out what is going on.

They have just re-opened a sales office on Faulkner street in Manchester, so maybe a sign that something is about to happen here at least.

 

[Aviador]

Re: Birmingham Airport News 2011

I think it will be a full story in the airlines' respective thread if it has been confirmed and that it would be a successful route. Yes, you could make this thread a sticky, maybe more people will notice it. Also, I think you could do that, if I make any updates then put that at the top.

OK then, I follow what you say now. So a summary of news in here with the full story in the respective airline threads.

If you (or anyone else} have some news to posts, copy and paste the first post in the thread and add the news to that post and resubmit it giving credit to the original/previous contributors. I'll then replace the first post with the new version to keep the 'headline' post up to date.

 

[Hassaan]

Re: Birmingham Airport News 2011

That'll work.

It'd also be good if someone on this forum/thread, maybe you world_rep, could go down to Birmingham Airport and find out about any long-haul or short-haul services that are being considered by the route development team etc, and so we can showcase it on here and other BHX related forums. It'd be interesting to hear what the airport is considering in the future.

Now Air India, if the public believe BHX would work better as a hub then they better choose that, the runway isn't that much of a difference and we have a larger population of Indians, but this hub thing better get itself over with, it's starting to annoy people.