Manchester Airport Transformation Programme

[KARFA]

When you arrive in the LHR T5. On Domestic arrivals or International arrivals transfering to domestic you will have your biometrics taken. Its not an ardouous process. Providing there is about 3/4 biometric scanners at the gate I cant see it causing too much of an issue. Does anybody know if it is a boarding pass or passport scan or just biometircs.

If its a boarding card scan the airline will have to remind the pax to retain their boarding card until entering the arrivals hall.

yes, oddly i am very well aware of the process at t5

biometrics are captured when you are departing on a domestic/DUB/JER flight - both when coming from landside or when going thro the flight connection centre. the point being you don't have a full plane load trying to use 2/3 scanners all at once. have you never seen the queue at the biometrics when everyone is trying to head to 142/143 in t3 once the flight is called? if you don't think this will mean slower de-boarding you are not using your imagination.

 

[marni1971]

Hoping for the best (!) but the whole domestic plan for T2X sounds like a cluster waiting to happen.

 

[LS@MAN]

A separate domestic/CTA facility should have been arranged before the TP or during the planning preparation, with a route through to the baggage reclaim next to the exit for the domestic arrivals, this biometrics set up is a backwards steps from what I can see!

 

[Trumpington]

What's point of keeping airbridges on Pier C if its going to be mothballed internally? Assume Pier B airbridge will be scrapped too?

 

[joshl257]

How hard would it be to make gate D1 D2 and D3 all domestic gates. Because we know there is going to be a UK arrivals exit on the far side of T2 legacy arrivals, Just build a corridor for those 3 gates use the old immigration point as the entry point to the baggage hall. Segregate belt 1 for UK arrivals and job done.

Maybe had FlyBe / Virgin Connect not gone bump MAG would have put a bit more thought into this arrivals process.

 

[marni1971]

What's point of keeping airbridges on Pier C if its going to be mothballed internally?

The clue is in “mothballed”.

 

[TheAviator]

There has been some resistance over the new arrivals procedures which is delaying moves.

Also concerns for additional remote turn arounds and a lack of check in space in T2.

Zone A in T2 not ready (will be EK’s check in Zone) and with Zone C being planned for EZY leaves little wiggle room to fit in additional carriers which already sees daily disputes between handling agents/airlines for check in desks.

Hopefully all will be ironed out over coming months but the airline move dates are very fluid and change by the week.

CCGE29

How much sway do the airlines have here? Am I right in saying that the vast majority of British Airways’ MAN flights are domestic (mainly to and from LHR)? Is there a world in which the airline points out the obvious (that practical provisions for domestic (their principal operations) are vastly superior out of T3 than T2) and simply refuses to move? How compelled would MAG feel to accommodate that?

 

[KARFA]

How much sway do the airlines have here? Am I right in saying that the vast majority of British Airways’ MAN flights are domestic (mainly to and from LHR)? Is there a world in which the airline points out the obvious (that practical provisions for domestic (their principal operations) are vastly superior out of T3 than T2) and simply refuses to move? How compelled would MAG feel to accommodate that?

well it appears the move has been delayed already - ba were supposed to move in april - and the suggestion is because of concerns from the airline. however, i am not sure ba can just refuse, they are hardly a major player at MAN.

all the BA flights from MAN are domestic and to LHR. the only additional point for BA vs an airline like LM is that for inbounds technically those who have done an INT->DOM connection at LHR do customs on arrival at the domestic outstation (they do immigration at LHR but checked bags are just put on the next flight with no passenger contact), but in reality that just means a red phone with signs for a customs reporting point in the baggage hall - you may have seen it in T3 in the domestic baggage hall.

 

[TheAviator]

well it appears the move has been delayed already - ba were supposed to move in april - and the suggestion is because of concerns from the airline. however, i am not sure ba can just refuse, they are hardly a major player at MAN.

all the BA flights from MAN are domestic and to LHR. the only additional point for BA vs an airline like LM is that for inbounds technically those who have done an INT->DOM connection at LHR do customs on arrival at the domestic outstation (they do immigration at LHR but checked bags are just put on the next flight with no passenger contact), but in reality that just means a red phone with signs for a customs reporting point in the baggage hall - you may have seen it in T3 in the domestic baggage hall.

Interesting. I’m sure BA not ‘worth’ much to MAG in cash terms (comparatively to other airlines who are much more heavily represented at Manchester) but I wonder how much importance they see in brand association with the ‘national carrier’?

If, as suggested here, the T2 biometrics system for domestic genuinely does take longer than the duration of the flight from LHR, it’s hard to see how BA could tolerate such an arrangement in the long term. Neither does permenant bussing really correlate with their premium position in the market. Would they simply abandon the airport all together?

 

[KARFA]

If, as suggested here, the T2 biometrics system for domestic genuinely does take longer than the duration of the flight from LHR, it’s hard to see how BA could tolerate such an arrangement in the long term. Neither does permenant bussing really correlate with their premium position in the market. Would they simply abandon the airport all together?

just to be clear - LHR (and indeed no other UK airport) uses biometrics for domestic or CTA arrivals. there is no real comparison we can use.

for departures, biometrics are used at LHR, as one airside you have a mixture of those on INT->INT connections who have not been thro immigration with those departing on UK/CTA flights. the biometric check on entry to security from landside, or when going thro the UK/CTA channel in flight connections (but you do not have the whole plane load of people all trying to do it at once), along with a second check at the gate on boarding, therefore prevents someone swapping a bp with someone who has not been thro immigration but could just get a flight to MAN/NCL and walk off.

it is not that the biometrics at MAN would take any longer per passenger than at LHR. The point is that if you deploy this getting off a flight at the end of the jetbridge you immediately create a chokepoint where there wasn't one before. you can see how a queue quickly starts to build as 200 odd passengers are waiting to use 2/3 biometric points. maybe it then takes 5/10 minutes more to deboard, but that slows down the whole turnaround process significantly.

whilst BA is not always particularly focused on the domestic feeder routes, i would be very very shocked if they abandoned MAN.

 

[TheAviator]

just to be clear - LHR (and indeed no other UK airport) uses biometrics for domestic or CTA arrivals. there is no real comparison we can use.

for departures, biometrics are used at LHR, as one airside you have a mixture of those on INT->INT connections who have not been thro immigration with those departing on UK/CTA flights. the biometric check on entry to security from landside, or when going thro the UK/CTA channel in flight connections (but you do not have the whole plane load of people all trying to do it at once), along with a second check at the gate on boarding, therefore prevents someone swapping a bp with someone who has not been thro immigration but could just get a flight to MAN/NCL and walk off.

it is not that the biometrics at MAN would take any longer per passenger than at LHR. The point is that if you deploy this getting off a flight at the end of the jetbridge you immediately create a chokepoint where there wasn't one before. you can see how a queue quickly starts to build as 200 odd passengers are waiting to use 2/3 biometric points. maybe it then takes 5/10 minutes more to deboard, but that slows down the whole turnaround process significantly.

whilst BA is not always particularly focused on the domestic feeder routes, i would be very very shocked if they abandoned MAN.

Yes, completely understood. I just can’t see 250ish customers queuing on a jet bridge for biometrics being at all tolerable to BA. If you consider 3 lanes and 20 seconds a passenger to pass through (optimistic!) that’s 30 mins…as long as the flight from LHR!!

 

[KARFA]

i don't want to give the impression i am completely negative on the move. there are undoubtedly things which will be much better in t2 - security, overall terminal space airside, better gate area and not boarding from a corridor.

however, this whole system MAN are proposing is quite simply dumb. i keep noting no other UK airport does it this way - and there are reasons why. i can see it working with say an EI ATR or a LM small aircraft with 20-50 passengers. i just think they clearly don't want to spend the money to do it properly and have come up with a stupid solution. one of the good things about t3 is i can be off the plane and at the train station in 10 minutes - so i am not too upset that the move has been delayed.

 

[CCGE29]

CTA flights will use the Biometrics then follow a reclaim route using carousel 12.

Domestic flights use a separate route exiting via carousel 1. Bussed arrivals for now.

Pier opens mid October with stands 203-213 (C3/5/7/9/11) on the side facing the current ‘A’ pier. C6 will also open in mid October - this is one of the A380 capable stands.

Bridges for the above stands are all installed.

Site offices referenced earlier in this thread have since been dismantled.


CCGE29

 

[KARFA]

CTA flights will use the Biometrics then follow a reclaim route using carousel 12.

Domestic flights use a separate route exiting via carousel 1. Bussed arrivals for now.

you said for now? so there is a plan to build a segregated internal route for domestic arrivals? not exactly great for all domestic flights that they can only be bussed in T2.

CTA and BA will use biometrics - BA will be using the low numbered A gates as they want a jetbridge. If the alternative is bussing only, then that is hardly attractive.

I am not having a go at you, I appreciate you providing the information, but this is all really a poor show from MAN.

 

[Trumpington]

The clue is in “mothballed”.

True, but I wonder what masterplan will be? Demolition or link to Eastern pier if Pier 4 scrapped!?

 

[marni1971]

True, but I wonder what masterplan will be?

I don’t think there is one anymore. Just a series of “make do’s”

We went from 4 piers to 3
We went from 3 piers to 2
Pier 3 was second to be built then it was pier 2 - after the T2X facade was completed and they had to punch a big hole in it.
Terminal 1 was being demolished now it isn’t
Terminal 1 was being decommissioned now half of it isn't
T3 security was being expanded now it isn’t
T2X was getting a glass atrium roof then it wasn’t
US pre clearance was coming now it isn’t
The T2X road layout was finished and then redesigned and ripped up

There doesn’t seem to be a coherent end game master plan.

 

[Trumpington]

I don’t think there is one anymore. Just a series of “make do’s”

My personal view pier 3 and 4 won't be built. T2 legacy stands will remain and Pier C will be physically joined to T2, as a cheap alternative. Pier B will be linked internally to T3. T3 will be renamed T1

 

[CCGE29]

I don’t think there is one anymore. Just a series of “make do’s”

We went from 4 piers to 3
We went from 3 piers to 2
Pier 3 was second to be built then it was pier 2 - after the T2X facade was completed and they had to punch a big hole in it.
Terminal 1 was being demolished now it isn’t
Terminal 1 was being decommissioned now half of it isn't
T3 security was being expanded now it isn’t
T2X was getting a glass atrium roof then it wasn’t
US pre clearance was coming now it isn’t
The T2X road layout was finished and then redesigned and ripped up

There doesn’t seem to be a coherent end game master plan.

Pier 3 is still planned to go ahead as things stand. Will be abeam the current stand 305.

Pier C will become part of T2 this winter though not directly linked. Pier C gates are receiving a refresh - Gate 27 has been completed already.

It is a challenge with the amount of construction at an active airfield - especially as over previous years it was ‘penned in’ so room for expansion is limited.

I share your concern with the value engineering, ‘pay cheap, pay twice’. We are already seeing instances of this with the floor having already been replaced in parts of T2 West.

CCGE29

 

[marni1971]

I share your concern with the value engineering, ‘pay cheap, pay twice’. We are already seeing instances of this with the floor having already been replaced in parts of T2 West.

Indeed. I’ve some friends who work the ramp who don’t paint a pretty picture of the state of pier one at ground level.

The more time passes the more the numbers aren’t adding up for the TP. Ten years ago they appear to have thought T2X with 4 piers was enough to handle what was required. What’s changed? Did they get the maths wrong? Are we growing faster than anticipated? Do the 2 missing piers (negated somewhat with the remaining legacy gates) make such a difference? Or a mix of all the above?

T2X was never about more capacity, it was about being able to close T1. Now here we are with half a T2X which is already looking to be full, half a terminal 1 staying open, and busses to remotes everywhere. And we’re racing towards 32 million a year.

 

[LS@MAN]

What's point of keeping airbridges on Pier C if it’s going to be mothballed internally? Assume Pier B airbridge will be scrapped too?

Pier 3 is still planned to go ahead as things stand. Will be abeam the current stand 305.

Pier C will become part of T2 this winter though not directly linked. Pier C gates are receiving a refresh - Gate 27 has been completed already.

It is a challenge with the amount of construction at an active airfield - especially as over previous years it was ‘penned in’ so room for expansion is limited.

I share your concern with the value engineering, ‘pay cheap, pay twice’. We are already seeing instances of this with the floor having already been replaced in parts of T2 West.

CCGE29

Interesting ref Pier C becoming part of T2, how will that work if not directly linked to T2, as in how will passengers be transferred to these gates?
Glad Pier C is getting a refresh if staying open, long overdue!

I assume the lack of refurbishing of certain areas of T2 (example legacy baggage claim) is not value engineering but instead funds allocated to other projects like T3 and Stansted?!
I hope these neglected areas do eventually see a refresh too!