Daily Direct Link from BHX to the US

[DarloPlaneBoy]

Sorry, but I can't understand what you are trying yo say. The sentence makes no sense. Who or what are different to Birmingham? And how?

Kevin

Oh sorry I was typing to fast I meant Delta could serve Birmingham they seem different to the others and clearly American and United are focused on LHR, Delta send 763's, 764's and occasionally A332 to Edinburgh I think UA send a 763 occasional but mostly 752's. Delta could be the airline BHX wants it would look good for BHX to be served by the A380, 787, 777 and 767 or A330 or it's long haul routed. Even LHR still gets 752's of UA none of American. I don't know what Manchester gets I know Air Lingus have the A321 LR flying to JFK and Singapore serve Texas with there A350. I think if we do ever get Transatlantic service properly TUI would be the first bet to increase Orlando daily during the Season. Do Tui Serve MCO or do they just serve Melbourne?. For proper US Service all year round I either see Emirates maybe trying something or maybe Delta or perhaps Air Lingus UK.

 

[gulftraveller]

The problem with the Emirates idea is that they already have 4 DXB-NYC flights per day, two nonstop and two 1 stop (ATH and MXP). There would be issues over securing further slots at JFK and EWR. Even if they need to secure 60% of seats from BHX, a 773 is too large for the route to JFK/EWR.

My focus would be on UA when they have the A321LRs and their focus shifts away from inbound tourism.

TUI is essentially operating charters. As mentioned, Delta are tied up with Virgin and who knows whether Aer Lingus UK will keep going if AA were to return to MAN.

 

[scottr]

You need to moderate your spelling and punctuation mate take a breath you’re just talking from a spotter’s point of view it’s all down to business.
Airlines are definitely not there for our viewing needs.

So do I but I'm saying he shouldn't really be phoning Airlines to ask them to fly here maybe if we all did Delta would fly here with a 767 they would see there is demand. But it is the Airports Job not KJAY's to be attracting Airlines. It would be like me up Dwight Gayle and asking him to come to West Brom 1 it looks Poor a fan has phoned rather than the club, 2 How do I know if Albion haven't already approached Gayle, 3 does he fit into Albion or do we fit into his plans, or in this Case Birmingham or Delta's Plans. There has to be a reason. If for example Delta had served BHX but pulled it sudden from schedule then I as to would us would have every right to phone them and ask them to return. Like I said to KJAY he probably doesn't know what he is doing him phoning Airlines rather than Birmingham Airport reps just looks poor and would actually probably put them of serving Birmingham as he phoned rather than The Boss of Birmingham or even someone who Delta share codes with Air Lingus say I think who could ask Air Lingus ah what's Birmingham Like we could do a deal with you guys to share codes if we fly from Birmingham to New York or Boston say. There's nothing about about asking them on twitter but just don't phone them that's BHX if they want Delta to join Job. Also if Delta did say yes to him what are BHX do what if the deal goes wrong what do Delta think then, what if Delta do an audit and find no one wants to fly from BHX to JFK and Boston as they travel to LHR or MAN there likely then to boost capacity there. BHX need to phone these Airlines not us. It does look bad if BHX aren't phoning these Airlines not that we know if they are or not. Delta could well be in discussion to fly here and try and make it work or they might have seen UA and AA pull out and think it won't work. But we don't know personally bringing things back on topic Air Lingus UK could work or An Emirates Stopover maybe even Qatar with there fleet trouble they know BHX they could for operational reasons send a Doha to Birmingham Flight say tonight as Standard station it here, then fly another one in bound for New York use BHX's former Monarch Engineering hangar matainence facilities and then send a Dreamliner to JFK. I reckon what we need is either TUI or Jet2 to do seasonal Flights cus New York at Christmas to many is magical to JFK on a 757/767/A321 or 787 or even get Icelandair or WOW Air to fly here and do a stopover. Maybe even SAS or Finnair Finnair could also attract BA Birmingham Flyers being in BA or One world frequent flyer Club to fly from BHX to Finland then onto JFK to get there points up.

 

[Coathanger16]

Oh sorry I was typing to fast I meant Delta could serve Birmingham they seem different to the others and clearly American and United are focused on LHR, Delta send 763's, 764's and occasionally A332 to Edinburgh I think UA send a 763 occasional but mostly 752's. Delta could be the airline BHX wants it would look good for BHX to be served by the A380, 787, 777 and 767 or A330 or it's long haul routed. Even LHR still gets 752's of UA none of American. I don't know what Manchester gets I know Air Lingus have the A321 LR flying to JFK and Singapore serve Texas with there A350. I think if we do ever get Transatlantic service properly TUI would be the first bet to increase Orlando daily during the Season. Do Tui Serve MCO or do they just serve Melbourne?. For proper US Service all year round I either see Emirates maybe trying something or maybe Delta or perhaps Air Lingus UK.

At the start of the pandemic, American took the decision to retire its entire fleet of B757s and B767s. Their current wide-body and long haul fleet consists purely of the B777 and B787. The "smallest" aircraft they have based at JFK for long haul is the B777-200ER. Even using BHX's best year in recent times - 2016 saw just under 150,000 pax to JFK & EWR combined - a daily 777 would have a load factor of 75%. Obviously depends on yield and having a daily 777 might attract additional passengers, but even then its borderline as to whether or not it would be profitable. Currently American Airlines flies to just 7 destinations in Europe from JFK, the smallest of which is Athens, which in 2019 handled over twice as many passengers as BHX.

United flies the B757 TATL because it fits the smaller markets better. It's more attractive to passengers to have a B757 daily than a B767 five times a week. In total this Summer, United will fly to 30 destinations in Europe from Newark, a large number of which are new routes.

You state American and United are focused on Heathrow - so is Delta, if not more so. 86% of Delta's seats from the US to the UK this summer go to Heathrow, with the remaining 14% going to Edinburgh. Once you factor in Virgin, its LHR 83%, MAN 12% and EDI 5%.

United serves 3 routes from EDI vs Delta's 2, and even taking into account Virgin's flights out of EDI, United still offers over 25% more seats than Delta/Virgin and over 50% than just Delta alone.

Pre pandemic, Delta flew their B757s to a variety of European destinations. They were generally used in smaller markets or for launching new routes, which is likely why they aren't being used for that purpose now as Delta consolidates its European network post Covid. In total this Summer, Delta will fly to 21 destinations in Europe from JFK.

As has been mentioned, TUI is largely a holiday charter airline, and so New York doesn't really fit that model. I'd rather see them add new Caribbean destinations such as Antigua or St Lucia, or if its expansion in the USA, then maybe Las Vegas.

For decades, the B757 was the workhorse of TATL flights outside of the major European Hubs (LHR, CDG, FRA, etc). The A321LR and XLR are the 21st Century equivalent and have already entered service with Aer Lingus, TAP Portugal, JetBlue and SAS on TATL routes. American and United airlines are due to start receiving their XLRs from 2024 and will no doubt use them to increase frequencies on TATL routes, return to pre-Covid destinations they have yet to, and to launch new routes.

who knows whether Aer Lingus UK will keep going if AA were to return to MAN.

Aer Lingus UK also serves Orlando and Barbados from MAN and are largely filling the void left by Thomas Cook rather than American Airlines.

 

[rollo]

DarloPlaneBoy TUI only serve Melbourne and Aer Lingus MAN ops mostly aimed at replacing TCX as alluded to by another poster.

For the rest of the UK Aer Lingus will want to feed transatlantic traffic through Dublin where don't forget you clear USA immigration so you arrive in the states as a domestic passenger its a good selling point for them.

 

[Matty_85]

This has been really interesting to read everyone’s comments. I think Ray posted a video of Tom Screen being interviewed where he said he was meeting an airline with a view to regain the New York direct. Even if it is 2025, I’m just happy they aren’t giving up, it’s definitely needed!

 

[mullion]

Aer Lingus ex MAN serve MCO and JFK in summer, at present A333 on MCO and A321LR on JFK but rumours that the A321 may swap with A332
as route is doing very well but until it happens that is all it is

 

[Ray Finkle]

In his video Tom said that he was in the USA in May meeting with an airline with a view to a 2024 start. He also said that he was in talks with an Icelandic airline with a view to a 2023 start. Hopefully his meeting(s) went well.

Thinking back to Primera and whether they were the reason for the withdrawal of United. A year, or maybe two, before United pulled out BHX were in Chicago, there was some excitement on here as to whether we may be about to see a seasonal ORD appear but I look back and wonder if it was a kind of rescue mission to try and persuade them to stay? Only those involved will know what actually happened at that meeting but if they couldn't convince United not to drop the route maybe it was then that Primera entered the picture? Pure speculation on my part of course.

 

[DarloPlaneBoy]

The Icelandic Airline could be the successor to Wow Air Potentially POP or something, potentially Icelandair. 2024 isn't that when UA and AA get there A321-NEO LR/XLR so it could be them

 

[JENNYJET]

I am not completely in tune with the facts but I am sure that the various treaties in place limit traffic between nation states irrespective of the original departure point. I have in mind Emirates service to New York via Italy. Is that only possible because of minimal competition in comparison to UK and USA? Does Ireland have such limits?

 

[Kevin Farnell]

I am not completely in tune with the facts but I am sure that the various treaties in place limit traffic between nation states irrespective of the original departure point. I have in mind Emirates service to New York via Italy. Is that only possible because of minimal competition in comparison to UK and USA? Does Ireland have such limits?

You may find this of interest -

EU–US Open Skies Agreement - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I agree, that it's just a Wikipedia entry, but from memory appears accurate. Note the final sentence -

'In November 2018, the UK concluded an individual open sky agreement with the US that will supersede the EU agreement post-Brexit'.

Reference to which can be found here -

UK and US agree post-Brexit flights deal

Airlines would continue to fly from the UK to the US after Brexit, the Department for Transport says.

www.bbc.co.uk

Ireland would be included under the EU - US agreement and it is possible for EU citizens (as well as those of the UK) to pre-clear US customs in Dublin.

Kevin

 

[JENNYJET]

My most gracious thanks to Kevin, he reminded me of a case study I undertook during my Bachelor's course in Law about treaties, the complexity and hidden diplomacy behind such documents. I recall challenging my tutor about what I considered the nonsensical wording and the inbuilt opportunities for legal disputes to which the reply was, "this is what we do, argue in court these differences, it is the living of a lawyer" .

This is the branch of legal study I enjoyed the most, My recent studies of Constitutional Law in a United States context was joyous because it had nothing to do with the lesser branches ( depending upon context ) of Criminal or Business or Family law.

Thank you Kevin for your diligent and intelligent input.

 

[SRDey]

I find it so depressing that we’ve gone from AA, United & possibly Monarch to nothing from BHX to JFK.. Aer Lingus via Dublin is so expensive too. Also didn’t we used to have a successful Chicago route pre 2001?

JetBlue would be my first choice but something like Emirates to JFK similar to their Milan stop over would be perfect

I could not agree more it honestly is extremely depressing how we have lost New York completely. I would love for JetBlue to start a JFK-BHX & Delta to start a JFK-BHX route but I think the likelihood is we could see an Asian airline use Birmingham as a scissor hub to US a likely and potential carrier in my head could be Vistara DEL-BHX-JFK or BOM-BHX-EWR ect… or even the new rebooted Jet Airways.

 

[JENNYJET]

I have always believed that BHX could be a niche airport for the obscure destinations that the likes of MAN or LHR would not touch. They have form undoubtedly, Air Blue, Primera and probably others that offered much but failed to deliver. I maintain my dislike of the current regime that run the airport business and I no longer accept pandemic excuses for lack of activity. Inviting Turkmenistan airlines back is fine but will BHX support them? e.g., why did the mainline American carriers pull out, and the little ones like AirArabia?

 

[Kevin Farnell]

why did the mainline American carriers pull out,?

Probably a multitude of reasons (and they pulled out of MAN too). The aircraft they used were old and had a poor serviceability record. I reasd that the aircraft didn't have seat back entertainment screens and that fares were higher than the equivalent flights from LHR (which offered multiple departures per day and the use of modern equipment). Had they committed to BHX and used aircraft like the B787, then it's possible the services would have survived (at least until COVID).

 

[nancledre]

Surely when the Americans pulled the plug, the 787 was a twinkle in Boeings eye!

 

[Nethercote2019]

The 787 had too many premium seats to fill

 

[Kevin Farnell]

Surely when the Americans pulled the plug, the 787 was a twinkle in Boeings eye!

United ceased BHX operations in 2017, as did American. The B787 entered service in 2012 with United airlines and with American, a little later.

 

[rollo]

I maintain my dislike of the current regime that run the airport business and I no longer accept pandemic excuses for lack of activity. Inviting Turkmenistan airlines back is fine but will BHX support them? e.g., why did the mainline American carriers pull out, and the little ones like AirArabia?

Regarding the US majors they made a strategic decision to pull out of the regions Birmiingham, Bristol, Newcastle, Belfast and Glasgow plus Stansted.Manchester still has a decent offering but is a shadow of its former self in the transatlantic market. Edinburgh is the stand out exception mostly because Americans see Scotland as a separate country to England which to most of them means London. In my view the BHX management at that time could do nothing to change the US carriers decision to leave.

It's undeniable Covid had a severe effect on all airports and BHX 's recovery is not the best but then again not the worst in otherwords about parr.

 

[Timberwolf]

I have always believed that BHX could be a niche airport for the obscure destinations that the likes of MAN or LHR would not touch. They have form undoubtedly, Air Blue, Primera and probably others that offered much but failed to deliver. I maintain my dislike of the current regime that run the airport business and I no longer accept pandemic excuses for lack of activity. Inviting Turkmenistan airlines back is fine but will BHX support them? e.g., why did the mainline American carriers pull out, and the little ones like AirArabia?

American scheduled carriers have pulled out of all English regional airports .Just LHR and LGW left in England now.
Virgin also have a much reduced programme from Manchester.
The US carriers seem more interested in flying US tourists into tourist hot spots ie Edinburgh and into London now.