A new airport.... South Yorkshire Airport City?

[pug]

I’m assuming the early information gained from the “experts” he has employed to carry out the review of the business case are coming out in favour of the airport. His wording alludes to the fact, it is now all about the relevant funding and it is going to be a positive decision in the summer.

I don’t think his statement reads like it’s a foregone conclusion. He does appear to be suggesting that they’re trying to mould the risk vs benefit in favour of the investment, but I would expect these ‘independent reports’ to be fully available ahead of a decision to grant funding. If they’re not then transparency is gone.

I note Ros Jones claims that flights will be much cheaper this time around ‘as we’re not following the previous model’. What an idiot,

 

[pug]

I’ve since seen Coppard posting in response to random comments that ‘he’s never said it’s guaranteed to go ahead and there’s lots to do’. It’s difficult to gauge as Guppy clearly interpreted it as though Coppard was hinting at the findings being positive, but it just looks odd to me.

He’s once again said the whole thing will cost no more than £150million so I don’t know how they’ve costed it??

 

[White Heather]

I’ve since seen Coppard posting in response to random comments that ‘he’s never said it’s guaranteed to go ahead and there’s lots to do’. It’s difficult to gauge as Guppy clearly interpreted it as though Coppard was hinting at the findings being positive, but it just looks odd to me.

He’s once again said the whole thing will cost no more than £150million so I don’t know how they’ve costed it??

Back of a fag packet apparently.

 

[pug]

Back of a fag packet apparently.

The ROI is being based on the ‘entire Gateway East’ development. This would go ahead regardless and doesn’t need the airport. It looks like they’re accepting that it’ll be money they’ll never make back from the business but that having the airport open would generate growth on the site which provides return in the form of jobs.

Basically I reckon it’s an exercise in how much can they stem losses, not will it ever pay its way as an airport.

Doncaster Sheffield Airport: Crucial step taken by Civial Aviation Authority to allow City of Doncaster Council to progress an airspace suitable for DSA’s future operations

Today the UK Civil Aviation Authority (CAA) has started the processes to allow Doncaster Sheffield Airport to move forward with its request to control an area of airspace for a potential future reopening of the airport.

www.doncasterfreepress.co.uk

In other words you ain’t getting what you had before!

https://airspacechange.caa.co.uk/documents/download/7603

Looks like the ACP initiated by Peel is being honoured. The airspace has not been saved. The new operator will need to formalise a completely new proposal which is encompassed in their statement of need as issued last summer. However the CAA appear to be clear in that it will be determined by numerous factors, certainly won’t be the large swathes they had previously and this will probably take a long time to plan.

 

[GolfFox]

The ROI is being based on the ‘entire Gateway East’ development. This would go ahead regardless and doesn’t need the airport. It looks like they’re accepting that it’ll be money they’ll never make back from the business but that having the airport open would generate growth on the site which provides return in the form of jobs.

Basically I reckon it’s an exercise in how much can they stem losses, not will it ever pay its way as an airport.

Doncaster Sheffield Airport: Crucial step taken by Civial Aviation Authority to allow City of Doncaster Council to progress an airspace suitable for DSA’s future operations

Today the UK Civil Aviation Authority (CAA) has started the processes to allow Doncaster Sheffield Airport to move forward with its request to control an area of airspace for a potential future reopening of the airport.

www.doncasterfreepress.co.uk

In other words you ain’t getting what you had before!

https://airspacechange.caa.co.uk/documents/download/7603

Looks like the ACP initiated by Peel is being honoured. The airspace has not been saved. The new operator will need to formalise a completely new proposal which is encompassed in their statement of need as issued last summer. However the CAA appear to be clear in that it will be determined by numerous factors, certainly won’t be the large swathes they had previously and this will probably take a long time to plan.

If one reads the CAA review of that airspace, the link to which I believe @radar shared, it was very clear that having accepted Peels' vision of a very large number of movements with airspace to match they were never going to do the same again. As the 'Who' sang - 'We won't get fooled again'.
Ironically it does seem that if the 'Petition' had not been instigated and the Politicians/ MP's had not meddled in the process, this stage might have been reached some time ago?

 

[White Heather]

I see the government needs to build more men's prisons. I can think of the perfect location!

 

[Finger66]

Let's hope Peel have a decent cell on clause then!

 

[pug]

If one reads the CAA review of that airspace, the link to which I believe @radar shared, it was very clear that having accepted Peels' vision of a very large number of movements with airspace to match they were never going to do the same again. As the 'Who' sang - 'We won't get fooled again'.
Ironically it does seem that if the 'Petition' had not been instigated and the Politicians/ MP's had not meddled in the process, this stage might have been reached some time ago?

Well it definitely appears to have been strategic, get the local elections out the way then the SoS can confirm to the CAA (who have probably been applying pressure as much as the CAA can) that they won’t call it in and the CAA can progress with closing the airspace.

Interestingly in the document they are clearly (although somewhat diplomatically) confirming that the airspace was not appropriate and that it will need to be redrawn ‘taking into account the type of operation and tasking’ that may take place at the reopened airport. Indeed, they say, it may not require any controlled airspace at all. I don’t believe they are too confident in it being successful reading that.

Im sure that despite this, the usual suspects will be selling this as good news. It has clearly been another tactical spin opportunity by putting a positive on it yesterday/Monday by leaking some info to the press ahead of the update on the CAA website which paints a different picture.

 

[White Heather]

For the past couple of years, Mayor Jones has been banging on about protecting DSAs airspace, and she clearly hoped the SoS would call in the decision and confirm that protection as she wanted. The opposite has happened. It's not been called in, and as of now, DSA has no airspace. So the spin doctor must be working very hard to paint a positive picture out of actions which directly contravene what the Mayor wanted.

So, it seems now that the new operators are going to have to submit a plan based on reality rather than fantasy and convince the CAA their demands are not once again overinflated. I imagine the CAA will want to see evidence that DSAs demands are realistic and based on credible airline or other commercial interest.

The CAA are notoriously slow at progressing airspace issues at the best of times. The current airspace review is torturously slow and DSAs demands will need to tie in with those of neighbouring airports, so this process is unlikely to be a quick one.

So what chance now of DSA being open for business from Spring 2026 as claimed. Even if it is, I doubt it will be anywhere near what the pro DSA folk are expecting.
.

 

[pug]

For the past couple of years, Mayor Jones has been banging on about protecting DSAs airspace, and she clearly hoped the SoS would call in the decision and confirm that protection as she wanted. The opposite has happened. It's not been called in, and as of now, DSA has no airspace. So the spin doctor must be working very hard to paint a positive picture out of actions which directly contravene what the Mayor wanted.

So, it seems now that the new operators are going to have to submit a plan based on reality rather than fantasy and convince the CAA their demands are not once again overinflated. I imagine the CAA will want to see evidence that DSAs demands are realistic and based on credible airline or other commercial interest.

The CAA are notoriously slow at progressing airspace issues at the best of times. The current airspace review is torturously slow and DSAs demands will need to tie in with those of neighbouring airports, so this process is unlikely to be a quick one.

So what chance now of DSA being open for business from Spring 2026 as claimed. Even if it is, I doubt it will be anywhere near what the pro DSA folk are expecting.
.

I wonder whether any airline will want to use it as a base without the provision of CAS from the outset? I know they did back in 2005 but things have moved on since then, pretty much every airport in the U.K. has at least Class D controlled airspace including places like NWI and EXT (in progress) that don’t really have any base operations (I know TUI outstation aircraft there but it’s not what I’d call a major operation).

There’ll be certain things DSA could do to mitigate the risk enough to enable airlines to base in the meantime, but it’ll just make things harder I suspect by having another hurdle to jump through.

 

[pug]

Dan Fell of Doncaster Chamber of Commerce has been interviewed by a local BBC station claiming that the CAAs decision is going to accelerate the reopening of the airport because ‘if the SoS had called the ACP in it would have prevented the airspace from progressing, but cos they’re not calling it in it will mean the airport can reopen to commercial traffic in 2026/2027 without having to jump through all the hoops of reapplying and redesigning the airspace’.

Am I missing something? This is absolutely not what the CAA have said. @radar do you have any thoughts?

 

[White Heather]

Dan Fell of Doncaster Chamber of Commerce has been interviewed by a local BBC station claiming that the CAAs decision is going to accelerate the reopening of the airport because ‘of the SoS had called the ACP on it would have prevented the airspace from progressing, but cos they’re not calling it in it will mean the airport can reopen to commercial traffic in 2026/2027 without having to jump through all the hoops of reapplying and redesigning the airspace’.

Am I missing something? This is absolutely not what the CAA have said. @radar do you have any thoughts?

Sounds like the exact opposite of reality.

 

[pug]

Sounds like the exact opposite of reality.

I found what he said about timescales interesting. He said something along the lines of it being 2027 before the airport is an airport ‘as people know it to be’ is going to be up and running. So what are they going? Reopening for ‘freight’ in 2026 now and passenger flights 2027?

Remember this is the same person who said it has to reopen in 2026 otherwise confidence will be lost. Accepted it seems that passenger carrying commercial air traffic is unlikely to be viable from Spring 2026.

 

[White Heather]

I found what he said about timescales interesting. He said something along the lines of it being 2027 before the airport is an airport ‘as people know it to be’ is going to be up and running. So what are they going? Reopening for ‘freight’ in 2026 now and passenger flights 2027?

Remember this is the same person who said it has to reopen in 2026 otherwise confidence will be lost. Accepted it seems that passenger carrying commercial air traffic is unlikely to be viable from Spring 2026.

Given what has to be done to the terminal, the equipment needed, the lead times for delivery, the lack of trained staff and the lack of airspace, not to mention a shortage of airline partners, I can't see any way passenger flights start in Spring 2026 as they've repeatedly claimed. They still don't even have the money .

Just as well that I never believe or trust politicians of any persuasion, because it's clear to me that they are duping the people of Doncaster at worst, or at best incompetenty misunderstanding what now has to be done regarding airspace.

 

[pug]

Given what has to be done to the terminal, the equipment needed, the lead times for delivery, the lack of trained staff and the lack of airspace, not to mention a shortage of airline partners, I can't see any way passenger flights start in Spring 2026 as they've repeatedly claimed. They still don't even have the money .

Just as well that I never believe or trust politicians of any persuasion, because it's clear to me that they are duping the people of Doncaster at worst, or at best incompetenty misunderstanding what now has to be done regarding airspace.

It’s interesting because Dan Fell isn’t a politician, he’s been interviewed by the BBC apparently under false impression's of the situation. He’s obviously proceeded to trot out really ill informed (in my understanding, could be wrong) information live on the radio.. it’s not great is it! Clearly communication is a problem.

 

[radar]

Am I missing something? This is absolutely not what the CAA have said. @radar do you have any thoughts?

No, you’re not. If this is such a great result for reopening, why did CDC and the #SaveDSA folks spend the last 3 years fighting to prevent this exact outcome? If this is what they wanted to happen, they could have left the CAA to get on with it and they would’ve been at this juncture in 2023. But they didn’t. They fought for the airspace to be retained as is, and lobbied the Secretary of State to call the decision in.

There is a letter from CDC, to the CAA, freely available on the airspace change portal page. Have a read of points 3 and 4 in particular - this is absolutely not the outcome they wanted.

 

[pug]

No, you’re not. If this is such a great result for reopening, why did CDC and the #SaveDSA folks spend the last 3 years fighting to prevent this exact outcome? If this is what they wanted to happen, they could have left the CAA to get on with it and they would’ve been at this juncture in 2023. But they didn’t. They fought for the airspace to be retained as is, and lobbied the Secretary of State to call the decision in.

There is a letter from CDC, to the CAA, freely available on the airspace change portal page. Have a read of points 3 and 4 in particular - this is absolutely not the outcome they wanted.

Thanks for confirming. I’d say it’s clever spin but it’s actually quite brazen how they’ve sold this as a win. I guess it’s like back end of last year when the SAU published its findings, they immediately drowned it out by announcing that an operator had been selected. It’s clear that a lot of effort and expertise went in to drawing up the original airspace, the RNAV procedures were excellent too.. Commercial realities proved that such a large swathe of airspace was clearly not merited, will no doubt see numerous knock backs if they reapply as part of the process, I’d also suspect that they’ll be back of the queue.

But it looks like Dan Fell has been told that the airport won’t be handling passenger flights in 2026. Wouldn’t be surprised if they reopen it for GA and to allow 2Excel to go back, which is fine but it’s not going to pay the bills and it’s not exactly going to inspire confidence within the electorate.

 

[White Heather]

Thanks for confirming. I’d say it’s clever spin but it’s actually quite brazen how they’ve sold this as a win. I guess it’s like back end of last year when the SAU published its findings, they immediately drowned it out by announcing that an operator had been selected. It’s clear that a lot of effort and expertise went in to drawing up the original airspace, the RNAV procedures were excellent too.. Commercial realities proved that such a large swathe of airspace was clearly not merited, will no doubt see numerous knock backs if they reapply as part of the process, I’d also suspect that they’ll be back of the queue.

But it looks like Dan Fell has been told that the airport won’t be handling passenger flights in 2026. Wouldn’t be surprised if they reopen it for GA and to allow 2Excel to go back, which is fine but it’s not going to pay the bills and it’s not exactly going to inspire confidence within the electorate.

The added complication is that whatever airspace DSA apply for, it has to fit in with the revised airspace procedures being drawn up by all the neighbouring airports. LBA have had their submissions knocked back several times. The CAA are difficult to please! DSA will impact on LBA, and MAN, so until their airspace changes are decided, it's hard to see how DSA can make progress. Equally, how can LBA draw up their plans when they dont know what DSA space will look like? The timing couldn't be worse.

 

[GolfFox]

Thanks for confirming. I’d say it’s clever spin but it’s actually quite brazen how they’ve sold this as a win. I guess it’s like back end of last year when the SAU published its findings, they immediately drowned it out by announcing that an operator had been selected. It’s clear that a lot of effort and expertise went in to drawing up the original airspace, the RNAV procedures were excellent too.. Commercial realities proved that such a large swathe of airspace was clearly not merited, will no doubt see numerous knock backs if they reapply as part of the process, I’d also suspect that they’ll be back of the queue.

But it looks like Dan Fell has been told that the airport won’t be handling passenger flights in 2026. Wouldn’t be surprised if they reopen it for GA and to allow 2Excel to go back, which is fine but it’s not going to pay the bills and it’s not exactly going to inspire confidence within the electorate.

With one of the MPs plus Mayor Jones et al saying the same thing, it is seems to my mind that this was a co-ordinated and disgraceful attempt to mislead but it does not alter the reality. Just digging an even deeper hole for themselves. Politics in Doncaster seems to be an unscrupulous business! I notice that a couple of pilots and 'aviation orientated people' on the main Campaign site have seen through this and let the cat out of the bag. At the end of the day the politicians would, I am sure, gain more respect if they told it as it is - after all their audience are not interested in whether there is CAS (unless it affects their holiday flight) - they just want their holiday flight!
Interesting in respect of Dan Fell - talked absolute rubbish in respect of the airspace - totally uninformed and misunderstood the CAA process but he has been given the 2027 information from somewhere - which you would think must be the Council.

 

[White Heather]

With one of the MPs plus Mayor Jones et al saying the same thing, it is seems to my mind that this was a co-ordinated and disgraceful attempt to mislead but it does not alter the reality. Just digging an even deeper hole for themselves. Politics in Doncaster seems to be an unscrupulous business! I notice that a couple of pilots and 'aviation orientated people' on the main Campaign site have seen through this and let the cat out of the bag. At the end of the day the politicians would, I am sure, gain more respect if they told it as it is - after all their audience are not interested in whether there is CAS (unless it affects their holiday flight) - they just want their holiday flight!
Interesting in respect of Dan Fell - talked absolute rubbish in respect of the airspace - totally uninformed and misunderstood the CAA process but he has been given the 2027 information from somewhere - which you would think must be the Council.

Yet only last week the unscrupulous politicians were still saying 2026. It's all smoke and mirrors.