Airport Consultative Committee [Questions & Responses]

[White Heather]

Re: Consultative Committee Questions [LBASG]

Some information from the most recent Consultative Committee meeting which took place on 24/2/11.

1. There is no specific date for the terminal development to start because LBA has first to work its way through a considerable list of 'Section 106' requirements imposed by the Council as part of the planning approval. This is being done but is proving a long haul. Many relate to environmental/transport issues. All have to be signed off before the terminal can be built. LBA stated that progress was being made and the development should be 'quite soon'. An indication that it is still to happen is that whilst the Section 106 issues are being dealt with, LBA is working (presumably with the architect) on the redevelopment phasing, to ensure that the work can be timed to minimise impact on the airport operations.

2. LBA is currently the fastest growing UK airport in terms of year on year passenger numbers. February figures are expected to mirror the 32% increase in January and numbers by the end of March are expected to be 2.9m. This is against an average reduction last year of 4% and a 'best case scenario' of zero growth this year. Passenger growth remains in the leisure sector and business travel remains depressed.

3. Ryanair are happy with their performance at LBA and we were told to expect 'further announcements'.

4 Easyjet are happy with the Geneva route and in addition to ski travellers are carrying business passengers on the route. We were told we would have to 'wait and see' what future developments this route might bring in the future.

5. LBA are still trying to get the LHR route back and are continually speaking to airlines and one airline in particular. They stated they will not give up on this.

6. LBA are continuing to work with PIA towards the upgrade of the ISB route to a B777. It was described as 'work in progress'

7. The new fuel farm is now fully operational with several resident fuel companies including Conoco and Q8.

8. The newly developed car park on Scotland lane has now been landscaped to screen vehicles from view.

9. Some will remember I raised the possibility of a Horsforth - LBA mini bus link enabling passengers to travel by rail to Horsforth and then up to LBA by bus. This is still being progressed with Metro and it is likely that before long, they will run the service on a trial basis to gather information about demand and costs. Negotiations are ongoing with certain bus operators who are interested in operating the service, but whether or not it happens will (I suspect) be dependent on the outcome of the trial period. No indications were given as to when this will take place. Alterations will be required to the car park at Horsforth Station and no decision taken yet as to which route it will take - either Scotland Lane or Bayton Lane.

That's all folks!

 

[wawkrk]

Re: Consultative Committee Questions [LBASG]

So Leeds City Council are still stifling the growth of LBA. Nothing changes does it.

 

[lbaspotter]

Re: Consultative Committee Questions [LBASG]

So Leeds City Council are still stifling the growth of LBA. Nothing changes does it.

You got it in one wawkrk. Even though they dont own the place they still have a big say in whats going on for some reason...

Guess thats Leeds city council for you??

 

[TheLocalYokel]

Re: Consultative Committee Questions [LBASG]

Section 106 payments that go to improve local facilities are pretty standard in large planning developments. Some regard them as a 'bribe' to get the local authority to approve the planning applications in return for these payments.

I've posted elsewhere in this forum a report regarding the major expansion of Bristol Airport and the section 106 payments (in excess of £5 million in that case) to or on behalf of the local authority feature in that, and have taken several months to finalise (or 'sign off').

 

[jason1-11]

Re: Consultative Committee Questions [LBASG]

5. LBA are still trying to get the LHR route back and are continually speaking to airlines and one airline in particular. They stated they will not give up on this.

With the current pricing structure at LHR, Leeds has little or no chance of regaining the link unfortunately. A real shame, but the economics of a 2 runway airport with such demand dictate that.

I personally miss those trips on the DC-9 with Diamond Service thrown in.

 

[White Heather]

Re: Consultative Committee Questions [LBASG]

You are probably right Jason, but at least LBA are not throwing the towel in and are constantly badgering airlines, pointing out the interlining opportunities available to them from LBA via LHR.

 

[User0001]

Re: Consultative Committee Questions [LBASG]

LBA are continuing to work with PIA towards the upgrade of the ISB route to a B777. It was described as 'work in progress'

The desicion on PIA B777's may be well out of LBA's reach at the moment. The deal with TK is off, and now comes the part of re-structuring the airline to raise revenue. I think it will happen eventually, but PK have got bigger issues than wondering what to operate on LBA at the moment, especially when the A310 is dong the job just fine.

LBA are still trying to get the LHR route back and are continually speaking to airlines and one airline in particular. They stated they will not give up on this

I think they should give upon this. LBA has a link to LGW already, and the fare structure at LHR has just been altered to make domestics very hard to run. If LBA didnt work when 'the times were good', then what hope has it got now? It will only be a matter of time before BD pull off MAN, and this is so that MAN has even put its hat in the ring to support HSR and its masterplan is to cut down on domestic flights where possible.

Easyjet are happy with the Geneva route and in addition to ski travellers are carrying business passengers on the route. We were told we would have to 'wait and see' what future developments this route might bring in the future

I think an extended season of GVA, or more frequency to GVA is the best we could hope for on that. Apart from the slight expansion at EDI, and the continued investment in LGW/MAN, easyjet seem to be having a case of 'Euro-itis' where they see demand for flights.

 

[wawkrk]

Re: Consultative Committee Questions [LBASG]

If the delays with the new terminal are caused by Leeds City Council, why don't Bridgepoint let this be more widely known.
Name and shame the culprits as being the very body the good people of Leeds have voted for.
The infrastruture issues lie firmly with the council and not the airport.Things like car sharing nonsense, the airport is not in the city centre and airport staff must often have to travel to work in the early hours.How many councillors share a car when they travel to work.I suspect none.

 

[Aviador]

Re: Consultative Committee Questions [LBASG]

The infrastruture issues lie firmly with the council and not the airport.Things like car sharing nonsense, the airport is not in the city centre and airport staff must often have to travel to work in the early hours.How many councillors share a car when they travel to work.I suspect none.

Totally agree with you there wawkrk.

I'm just waiting for the airports response on that one. Do they foot the bill for the imposed fines made by the council or do they pass these charges onto the staff that work at the airport? Like you say many, if not most work unsociable hours travelling to work between 02:30 and 05:30 in the morning well before Centrebus have got into gear with the buses. Car share isn't even an option. It's totally unreliable and you'd be at the mercy of your colleagues getting out of bed and being ontime every morning. As usual the council puts no thought into it whatsoever.

 

[eastcoaster]

Re: Consultative Committee Questions [LBASG]

If the delays with the new terminal are caused by Leeds City Council, why don't Bridgepoint let this be more widely known.
Name and shame the culprits as being the very body the good people of Leeds have voted for.
The infrastruture issues lie firmly with the council and not the airport.Things like car sharing nonsense, the airport is not in the city centre and airport staff must often have to travel to work in the early hours.How many councillors share a car when they travel to work.I suspect none.

I could'nt agree more with you WAWKRK. It's nothing less than a scandal what the council have done in stitching Bridgepoint up to do their dirty work (at Bridgepoints cost). Work that should have been carried out while in council ownership.
As was said on another post earlier, the councils were the hindrance of the airport when they owned it, and now continue to be a thorn in the side of the airport after it's sold preventing what should be a jewel in the crown for West Yorks public.

 

[User0001]

Re: Consultative Committee Questions [LBASG]

Firstly, thanks Heather for the update. Some positive stuff and good to hear the work is still going on with PIA and the Heathrow link.

Secondly, pasted below is the legal agreement between the airport and the council. The only things which need to be done in advance of the building work starting are number (1) and (2i) which is basically a case of writing a cheque. The final point about the need for a travel plan has already been done

The condition about car sharing and public transport for airport employees isn't a pre-condition of building work starting and the maximum the airport would need to pay if they don't meet the targets is £70,000 per year. In the context of £28m to develop the terminal, it's not a huge amount.

As we have debated at some length, I would think the main reason the work hasn't started yet is that the airport management and the owners have been in no rush to spend the best part of £30m when the economic recovery has been so fragile.

The S106 for the terminal extension Application 08/06944/FU has the following obligations:

1. Payment of an annual bus contribution of £228,000 towards the operation of existing (or revised) public bus services from Leeds and Bradford to the airport, until the modal shift target of 10% of all passenger trips made to the Airport being made by the use of Public Bus Services.

2. Three Improvements Contributions, triggered as follows:
i) £125,000 prior to commencement of the terminal development
ii) £425,000 when passenger levels exceed 3.8mppa, agreed peak hour traffic
levels have been triggered
iii) £500k when the 2nd improvement contribution has been committed or spent, and subject to higher peak hour traffic levels if previous monies have been spent on highway capacity improvements.

3. Travel Plan Requirements:

Staff targets of:

i) Airport Company Staff Mode share of staff travelling to work by means other than single occupancy vehicles of 10% by 2010, 20% by 2011 and 30% by 2012

ii) Non Airport Company Staff Mode share of staff travelling to work by means
other than single occupancy vehicles of 20% by end of 2012 with penalties if
targets are missed of £1,000 per LBIA employee and £250 per non-LBIA
employee up to a maximum of £70,000 per annum.
Passenger target of 10% of all passenger trips by public bus service

Travel Plan monitoring fee of £3000 per annum for 5 years

4. Annual Forecourt Survey Payment to the Council of £3750 + VAT (5 years)

5. Payments to Leeds City Council to provide highway traffic monitoring around the airport to assess traffic levels throughout the year

6. Review of Masterplan and Surface Access Strategy in 2011

7. Submission of a new planning application within 12 months of the passenger levels exceeding 4.5mppa, including new transport assessment, travel plan and S106 obligation for any development which would facilitate passenger throughput in excess of 5mppa.

8. Steering Group to be set up within 6 months of commencement to include between 1 and 3 representatives from each of North Yorkshire County Council, City of York Council, City of Bradford Council, Leeds City Council, Metro and LBIA, the purpose of which is to provide a structured forum for discussion about the expenditure of the improvement contribution monies to best achieve modal shift targets.

9. Dedication of land which is necessary for the construction and operation of a tram train link.

In addition conditions applied to the planning permission require the submission, agreement and implementation of a travel plan prior to commencement, submission of a forecourt management plan and removal of the temporary private hire booking office and re-location within the building.

 

[White Heather]

Re: Consultative Committee Questions [LBASG]

World-Rep, the reason LBA is still trying to get back the LHR route is that LGW does not offer the interlining opportunities that exist at LHR. For many years, this was a busy and successful route for LBA, operating aircraft up to A321, just as at MAN. Only when Lufthansa took control of BMi and started taking slots to operate other routes did the service start to struggle, and it was a sure sign of their intentions when they downgraded the service to an Embrear. Remember that just prior to that, we had up to 5 rotations a day on the route.

To be honest, BMi were stupid to concentrate on the LHR to MAN service, which put them in direct competition with BA - and that is a competition they appear to be losing. Certainly that route is now also under threat, but had they focussed on LBA instead they would have had the entire East of the Pennines catchment area to work with. It is sad that despite good loads an airline will now make a loss on the LHR route due to the rediculous landing fees, and any airline will need to be certain that they will bring in enough interlining passengers to make it worthwhile. Obviously, the LBA management feel that the demand is there - perhaps not for 5 rotations a day, but for enough flights to service intercontinental routes. Clearly that tends to suggest that there is only one or two airlines that could even consider such a route.

LS16 - You are welcome, however I can only report what we were told, although I do not doubt what you are saying. We were told however that the conditions had to be signed off before the terminal development could commence, and as far as I am aware, whilst there is a travel plan, it has not been signed off yet. Frankly I would support the airport if they refused, as the plan is quite rediculous, and I would doubt very much that Leeds City Council would attempt to impose such restrictions on their own staff. As stated above, for staff to do what the council want, when there are often no buses running is totally unreasonable.

 

[User0001]

Re: Consultative Committee Questions [LBASG]

Whiteheather.

I think you have missed a huge point regarding BD on MAN-LHR!

You say they went 'up against BA', which yes, in some degrees, they did, but you forget that BD were catering for the many star connections that were to be had at the time.
Do you really think BA would have let you book MAN-LHR-LAX with MAN-LHR on BA then LHR-LAX on Air New Zealand. I dont think so!
The reason that the MAN-LHR is now being downgraded is because there are now either direct services on what were once the main transfer options, and because with LH offering 89 flights each way per week to MAN, Swiss having 28 flights each way per week, SN having 28 flights each way per week, there are many other options open to MAN. Its nothing to do with BA whatsoever!

Also, if the Leeds route performs so much better than the MAN route, why is the latter still here and the former gone?!? Are you saying you have more sense than the highly profitable mega airline that is Lufthansa? (Besides the dropping of LBA-LHR was a BD decision, not LH).

Im sorry, but it just seems some people are only seeing what they want to see, rather than the bigger picture.

 

[wawkrk]

Re: Consultative Committee Questions [LBASG]

Interlining through Gatwick indeed is not such a big attraction with limited possibilties.
I rarely used this route but Heathrow is much more desirable.I think it would only work if BA came back on the route now after their long absence.
Frequent flyer membership has a huge influence if you travel a lot, it's a big decision to change to another alliance or waste air miles.A few years back I changed from BA to KLM. The stingy Star alliance points for using BMI, Lufthansa and LOT etc were a waste of time.I am fortunate now,these days I keep my KLM status for life without using them so often but it still influences my choice of flights.

 

[rmac]

Re: Consultative Committee Questions [LBASG]

World_Rep said
You say they went 'up against BA', which yes, in some degrees, they did, but you forget that BD were catering for the many star connections that were to be had at the time

But was that not the big advantage BD had by offering LHR from LBA, MME, EDI, GLA, BFS and eventually MAN and ABZ. but also several European cities. The bigger picture seems to me was that BD wanted to fly with the 'big boys' and offer transatlantic flights from Manchester and Heathrow if they could get the slots, etc and so they began to abandon their established connections in the regions and the focus shifted away from building up and maintaining profitable routes. Good services to AMS, CDG, and others have all gone, now Palma. LBA, MME have gone, GLA next. In Scotland BMi have been treading water or going backwards and overtaken by Flybe, EasyJet and others. No new routes offered.
Now the focus is on the Mid East !!! How long will ABZ keep going? BmiBaby has never really got going and has lost out to Jet2 at LBA, EasyJet at EMA. Ryanair at EDI -all bases that could have expanded in the early years.
I think they focused on the wrong things and only Lufthansa is their savior.

 

[jason1-11]

Re: Consultative Committee Questions [LBASG]

As I have contacts within BA, I let you know if anything leaks out. Highly unlikely though.

 

[User0001]

Re: Consultative Committee Questions [LBASG]

LS16 - You are welcome, however I can only report what we were told, although I do not doubt what you are saying. We were told however that the conditions had to be signed off before the terminal development could commence, and as far as I am aware, whilst there is a travel plan, it has not been signed off yet. Frankly I would support the airport if they refused, as the plan is quite rediculous, and I would doubt very much that Leeds City Council would attempt to impose such restrictions on their own staff. As stated above, for staff to do what the council want, when there are often no buses running is totally unreasonable.

Hi Heather - I will post the link about the travel plan. It has definitely been agreed by the council and that paticular element of the S106 has been fulfilled.

I will also post a link about some of the buildings and materials issues that need to be met in advance of the work starting. It might have been the airport were referring to some of this type of stuff as much as the S106. For example, all the building materials need to be approved by the council in advance.

Key point about the planning by the way is that it expires in a little over 18 months. If they haven't started work by then they will either have to reapply or it will just lapse.

 

[White Heather]

Re: Consultative Committee Questions [LBASG]

Thanks LS16. I would be amazed if LBA allowed the planning consent to lapse at 3 years as it would represent a huge waste of funds. Certainly the indications given last week were that a start was not far away, so fingers crossed.

World-rep, I have not missed any of the points you raise and I can't help thinking that it is you who sees everything through Manchester tinted glasses. The points I have raised are not mine as an individual and have all been raised and debated at the LBA Consultative Committee meeting, which is why I have posted them in this thread. I am not about to get into an argument with you therefore as that is not my intention in reporting what is said at these meetings. If people want to have a go at what I report, then the answer is simple enough - I will not report back on the outcome of the meetings. Please don't make out that I am claiming to know more than Lufthansa, who incidentally were already in control of BMi when the LBA route was pulled. During Michael Bishops chairmanship, the LHR route was operated without a break since around 1980.

 

[User0001]

Re: Consultative Committee Questions [LBASG]

This is confirmation that the travel plan has been agreed

https://publicaccess.leeds.gov.uk/onlin ... 330774.pdf

 

[White Heather]

Re: Consultative Committee Questions [LBASG]

Thanks LS16, I have no doubt it was there, but it is coming up as 'document unavailable' at the moment.