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Leeds Bradford Airport’s Expansion Plans Under Public Inquiry
- Thread starter cockpitking
- Start date
- Tagged users None
White Heather
Elite Pro-Member
Sorry, but that was the planning approval in 1994 when we largely had noisy Chapter 2 aircraft. Your'e blaming the current Council for terms imposed 31 years ago when they agreed to 24 hour opening? The council have to comply and enforce the approval by law. The fact they didn't until G****A stuck their nose in should tell you something!
You could just as easily blame LBA for including the change in hours within Project Sky and then losing the approval given when they withdrew the planning application. How can you blame the council when they approved a change in hours only a couple of years ago? It wasn't their doing that led to the airport withdrawing it. That was entirely down the the Tory Government and the delays they caused, plus Covid.
This constant blaming of LCC makes no sense at all given they've approved everything that the airport have applied for. The CLEUDs were relating to the interpretation of the old planning approval and even if they had just waived them through, do you really think that G****A wouldn't then have then appealed? It was always likely to go all the way to the court.
Finger66
Well-Known Member
We are going to have to agree to disagree on this
LBA4EVER
Elite-Member
With 200million pounds of investment going into our airport something needs to be sorted asap! As we are now approaching late summer and heading soon into autumn the airport management will hopefully be looking to secure new routes with current carriers and possibly new carriers, the airport now has a terminal that it can promote esp as we go into 2026, so the CLEUD is the last thing they wanna be dealing with, typical LBA nothing is ever straight forward!
This situation has to be sorted fast!
This situation has to be sorted fast!
LBAYORKIE
Elite-Member
- Dec 30, 2009
- 3,686
- 233
I have every confidence in the CEO.
If anyone wants to ask a question or seek reassurance its possible to do so at a community event.
You can even approach the CEO person to person immediately after the event.
White Heather
Elite Pro-Member
Happy to do so.
northsouth
Active Member
- Feb 21, 2010
- 99
- 63
I attended yesterday community meeting at Bramhope which thought was very good.
There was a presence from ( they who shall not be named ) handing out leaflets but I refused to take one
I did manage to speak with Vincent Hodder briefly before the meeting started and he discussed the purpose was they were trying to reach out to people about constant mis leading information and talk about the facts and plans the current situation & the future
Then we I asked what current situation regards the CLEUD he stated that it is business as normal and they are in regular discussions with LCC and they are some further questions & anomalies regard the recent public enquiry and it will most likely to go a judicial review, he did discuss some further detail just can’t remember exact words! But he seemed confident
I asked about DSA he did not seen too worried as he stated previously it will most likely fail! Due to lack of demand and does not know if they even have any airlines lined up yet !!
Easy jet nothing about a base yet but he feels they will need to see how the grow over this & next year or so .
The 2 hour beefing started with a screen show PowerPoint display on the new terminal and development with are due to be completed by end of 2026 but at this point a couple of anti-airport people started to interrupt the briefing about light level in the terminal and getting wet when boarding aircraft.
The next part discussed was carbon emissions and net 0 and the airport progression toward reaching which is all in the public domain if interested, but again someone tried to stop the discussion someone claiming to be from Leeds university but I not sure who they are associated with but they was 5 of them and they did start becoming disruptive he asked Vincent to stop so he could speak but the Majority asked for Vincent to continue then the 5 of them got up wand walked out while Vincent was speaking.
Next part noise - he presented on a the power point display chart showing the areas they are effected showing a graph for 2016 & then 2025 shown the areas effected in 2025 are less than 2016 they have various methods of recording this which are approved by CAA and then showed further graph to Demonstrate the lesser noise effect of the modern aircraft NEO / MAX then he discussed about ageing aircraft that use LBA like the 737 – 300 are nosier type are eventually will be replaced but again constant disruption from various individuals one even asked if Steve Heapy would come along to one of these meeting to explain why LBA has a Lot of the older nosier types - Vincent said I asked him when I next seen him !!!!
There was constant disruptions thought this but I guess over 50% of the people asking questions were anti-airport but there we a few supports too
Then the was a questions & answers which only interesting note was Someone asked about the Heathrow link, he said BA will not be returning and as previous stated they are in talks with Loganair using a code share x3 daily but nothing further as of now
This is all from memory I tried to pick out the bits I can remember as the meeting was over 2 hours but I glad I attended would think it worth a visit to one if you have time
There was a presence from ( they who shall not be named ) handing out leaflets but I refused to take one
I did manage to speak with Vincent Hodder briefly before the meeting started and he discussed the purpose was they were trying to reach out to people about constant mis leading information and talk about the facts and plans the current situation & the future
Then we I asked what current situation regards the CLEUD he stated that it is business as normal and they are in regular discussions with LCC and they are some further questions & anomalies regard the recent public enquiry and it will most likely to go a judicial review, he did discuss some further detail just can’t remember exact words! But he seemed confident
I asked about DSA he did not seen too worried as he stated previously it will most likely fail! Due to lack of demand and does not know if they even have any airlines lined up yet !!
Easy jet nothing about a base yet but he feels they will need to see how the grow over this & next year or so .
The 2 hour beefing started with a screen show PowerPoint display on the new terminal and development with are due to be completed by end of 2026 but at this point a couple of anti-airport people started to interrupt the briefing about light level in the terminal and getting wet when boarding aircraft.
The next part discussed was carbon emissions and net 0 and the airport progression toward reaching which is all in the public domain if interested, but again someone tried to stop the discussion someone claiming to be from Leeds university but I not sure who they are associated with but they was 5 of them and they did start becoming disruptive he asked Vincent to stop so he could speak but the Majority asked for Vincent to continue then the 5 of them got up wand walked out while Vincent was speaking.
Next part noise - he presented on a the power point display chart showing the areas they are effected showing a graph for 2016 & then 2025 shown the areas effected in 2025 are less than 2016 they have various methods of recording this which are approved by CAA and then showed further graph to Demonstrate the lesser noise effect of the modern aircraft NEO / MAX then he discussed about ageing aircraft that use LBA like the 737 – 300 are nosier type are eventually will be replaced but again constant disruption from various individuals one even asked if Steve Heapy would come along to one of these meeting to explain why LBA has a Lot of the older nosier types - Vincent said I asked him when I next seen him !!!!
There was constant disruptions thought this but I guess over 50% of the people asking questions were anti-airport but there we a few supports too
Then the was a questions & answers which only interesting note was Someone asked about the Heathrow link, he said BA will not be returning and as previous stated they are in talks with Loganair using a code share x3 daily but nothing further as of now
This is all from memory I tried to pick out the bits I can remember as the meeting was over 2 hours but I glad I attended would think it worth a visit to one if you have time
northsouth
Active Member
- Feb 21, 2010
- 99
- 63
Yes it seems so
- Admin
- #270
Bramhope isn't anywhere near the flight path. It's as NIMBY as it gets.
LBAYORKIE
Elite-Member
- Dec 30, 2009
- 3,686
- 233
Really pleased you made the effort, I think you will understand better now why its important that as many pro-airport people attend. The airport need our support at these meetings.
Ive been to two already and they follow exactly the same format. Im going to Otley tomorrow.
I managed to get a ticket to Bramhope yesterday. I was towards the back so couldn’t quite make out the finer details on the noise charts, but otherwise managed to make a few notes which I’ll write up later to add to North South’s good summary.
My takeaway overall is that LBAYorkie is right about it being an opporuntity to speak to the airport CEO directly. He was there at the start and end and people were talking to him. But he’s not going to tell you any juicy news about route developments or his next steps in the planning process, so set your expectations on that front.
And to be really honest, I didn’t see any evidence at all about the need to turn up just to lend support. He’s a very capable speaker and very polite and firm with people who were interrupting him or who had opposing views. It seemed obvious to me that the purpose of the meeting is to connect with concerned residents who have picked up all sorts of misinformation and hyperbole from GALBA
Go if you want to. It’s an interesting experience and a chance to speak to the CEO. But equally, don’t feel that by not going you are letting the airport down or not doing your bit.
My takeaway overall is that LBAYorkie is right about it being an opporuntity to speak to the airport CEO directly. He was there at the start and end and people were talking to him. But he’s not going to tell you any juicy news about route developments or his next steps in the planning process, so set your expectations on that front.
And to be really honest, I didn’t see any evidence at all about the need to turn up just to lend support. He’s a very capable speaker and very polite and firm with people who were interrupting him or who had opposing views. It seemed obvious to me that the purpose of the meeting is to connect with concerned residents who have picked up all sorts of misinformation and hyperbole from GALBA
Go if you want to. It’s an interesting experience and a chance to speak to the CEO. But equally, don’t feel that by not going you are letting the airport down or not doing your bit.
LBAYORKIE
Elite-Member
- Dec 30, 2009
- 3,686
- 233
It depends how involved you want to be.I asked a question or two, asked one of the interrupting anti brigade to let us hear what the CEO had to say (after which there were no more interruptions) and lead applause.
No point me re-stating my views on attendance, but I am really pleased you went.
Finger66
Well-Known Member
So why say what you have? Other than to have a further dig at those you feel aren't supporting the airport. Please can you let this rest. Others explain their legitimate reasons for not being able to attend
LBAYORKIE
Elite-Member
- Dec 30, 2009
- 3,686
- 233
I don't have any intention of 'dropping it'. I will be promoting every event that is due to take place. I dont need to know if people cant make it, its up to them.
Finger66
Well-Known Member
None of us mind you promoting/reminding about upcoming events, in fact that is actually very helpful. But comments like "no point me re-stating my views on attendance" are just sarcastic digs that we don't need and it is that part I, and suspect several others, would like you to give a rest to.
- Moderator
- #277
@LBAYORKIE , if you will give me £60 to drive over from the East Coast, then I will attend and support the airport. Otherwise, I will carry on supporting the airport by using it.
LBAYORKIE
Elite-Member
- Dec 30, 2009
- 3,686
- 233
No one has to justify not attending to me, Im just trying to motivate.
I felt I was being tactful in using that phraseology. It wasnt sarcastic but I cant stop you taking it that way.
markietg
Active Member
- Feb 23, 2011
- 271
- 213
Well I, and I suspect several others would love you to pack in with the endless and boring Dad jokes…but I doubt you will.
Last edited:
Further to North South's update, here's some further detail on yesterday's meeting at Bramhope St Giles.
A few days before the meeting, an email was shared with an overview of what to expect and the agenda
There were 4 or 5 of the team from LBA on site for the mingling phase. This included the CEO, Joss, Head of Corporate Affairs and Charles, Head of Planning & Development + a few of their team. The display itself is a large print of the noise footprint around the airport and a few pictures of the terminal.
The presentation started at 6:30 as advertised. There are basically 3 parts to it.
1. Details about the investment and improvement programme. There's nothing really here you won't have seen already in terms of images except I think one picture of the new security area. VH explained that the new security area will be in the old arrivals hall. There will be two escalators leading up a relocated World Duty Free (I assume roughly where the old Camden Food Court / Burger King used to be). They are planning to open this in March 2026, in time for next summer's peak season. The existing duty free will then be closed and 'repurposed'
He mentioned that as this work is already underway then at the busiest of busiest times, the security queue wouldn't be able to stretch back towards hall B, so the queue might end up being outside. They are constructing something to offer some protection (I think) and in his view, this would be required infrequently in the summer and not at all in the quieter autumn, winter months. But always possible it is lashing with wind and rain on the times it is needed
A question was asked about air bridges. No additional ones to be built. But one to be replaced. In response to a follow up question, he explained that Jet2 and Ryanair don't want to use bridges. This not about cost - the airport doesn't charge for them - but because it leads to slower turnaround times. These airlines prefer front and back stairs.
I think there was a question on lounges and he said they were aware of the feedback - with something of a wry smile - and they were listening.
Runway resurfacing was mentioned. £50m is the latest estimate they have. He seemed to suggest that it would take 5 years - presumably to avoid disruption - but maybe I misheard as that seems a long time.
2. The update on carbon emissions. Basically split into what the airport site can control - e.g electric vehicles, heating and lighting etc. Message here was they'll eliminate everything apart from emissions related to food refrigeration in the next few years. But he was very honest to acknowledge that the biggest source of emissions from the aviation industry were aircraft emissions and the transport emissions from people travelling to/from airports. There was then quite a complicated graph showing how these might change over time due to older aircraft being phased out and a host of other things. There was a more simpler chart showing the UK aviation emissions hadn't grown in the last 20 years despite a rise in passengers. His message being that things like older aircraft being phased out and next gen a/c coming on stream has had an impact in the past and this trend will continue.
3. The update on noise. Nothing too much add here to North South's update. The airport clearly have a lot of data and they use the services of the CAA (or a CAA approved supplier) to draw these noise contours. They take every single flight over the course of a year and, based on the aircraft type and routing, create a sort of average exposure to noise over a year. He was clear that this isn't the noise from a single aircraft landing or departing, but something to represent what living near the airport is like over a whole year. This is the accepted way to assess the impact, he said.
They also has some interesting charts showing how many homes were exposed to different levels of noise and how that is reducing over time and that a very small number of homes are exposed to the highest level. They get very few complaints and they come from a small number, of repeat complainers. He was actually very sympathetic towards people who are sensitive to noise and that it was a very personal thing. The airport have some mobile noise monitors and they placed one in the home of one of the regular complainants. It was a semi-detatched house and the guy in the adjoining house said "I never hear them at all". He also said they have someone who is insistent that night flying started after Covid and there hadn't been anything before. This person had 'tuned it out' in the 20 years before Covid, but the drop off in flights during Covid, meant it was a real shock when it came back. The airport had to print off and share all sorts of historic data to prove what had been happening since the mid 1990s. He wasn't being derogatory or sarcastic, but just acknowledging that one person's lived experience is not the same as someone else and that people themselves can change. Long and the short of it though, the people really troubled by it seem to be in a significant minority and the airport serves a much wider community.
In terms of questions that might be of interest to members here
- I think I caught someone asking at the end about upgrading the ILS on R14. Answer seemed be that the technology is there to do it, but the worldwide regulations need to be changed and approved to allow these new technologies to be used. He seemed hopeful this was underway - obvs not something LBA is leading, just a change that will apply to all airports world-wide, and LBA could benefit.
- Target is still 7m passengers in the next 5 years. In response to a question about how big could it ever get, e.g. what's the absolute max it could ever handle, the answer was 11m. Basically think of Bristol today.
- They included a slide on the CLUED process. It didn't generate much interest at all really. He defended Leeds City Council though and said this process is entirely about legal opinion and interpretation of planning law. It isn't a planning application or an amendment where the council get to express a preference and apply their own planning policy or to balance the needs of different groups. He also said that the inspector agreed with LBA's interpretation of the planning rules but that the inspector didn't agree the airport had proven there had been a 10 year continuous breach under planning law.
- Total air passenger trips taken by people starting or ending their journey in Yorkshire and Humberside is currently 13m, of which LBA handles 4.2m. Of the remaining 9m, most go to Manchester and London. He acknowledged that some of these would be on wide body long haul flights, but a very large amount of the remainder were taken by people often travelling to destinations served by LBA, on airlines that operate out of LBA. So there's a big opportunity
- He mentioned that LBA currently makes just 50p profit per passenger compared to over £3 at Manchester and £10 at Heathrow.
Everything presented here is arranged for neatness, but in reality as NS says, it bounced around all over the place. Mostly an elderly couple who I suspect had they been handed a million pounds would have complained about the colour of the bag it came in. They complained in equal measure about the noise and the fact the airport was like a 'third world' airport and why wasn't he providing more seats, more comfort, more investment. From what I could tell, the small number of people who did complain were actually users of the airport. Even the guy making his pitch that earth was on its last legs said that flying and travelling was great. But in light of the existential threat to his children and their children, he'd just be taking a flight once every three years now.
Did he win them over? Not the eco-guy who stormed out because he couldn't; believe that the discussion had moved onto something as trivial as noise. "I can't be in the same room as these crazy people" seemed to be his parting shot. I don't know whether he was taking about people complaining about noise or the rest of us. But in terms of the other two couples, maybe. He dispelled some myths, was honest about the ambition of the airport and clear that its the airlines that fly the planes and they do so in response to people (like them) booking tickets and wanting to travel. The airport is incentivising quieter aircraft and LBA currently has the oldest (and therefore noisiest) based fleet of any UK airport, so it should be entirely possible for bigger, quieter more fuel efficient planes to replace them. It's inevitable this will happen - just as Chapter 2 aircraft were banned in the early 2000s, so Mr Hodder predicted that 737-300s and older 800s would be banned eventually. His hope is that the airport can make itself attractive to airlines and passengers and the fleet replacement happens sooner rather than later.
His closing remark was, how would people feel if it closed and to take a look at the reaction of people and politicians in Doncaster about what's happening down there. Predictably the aforementioned elderly couple were aghast at the idea it might close.
A few days before the meeting, an email was shared with an overview of what to expect and the agenda
There were 4 or 5 of the team from LBA on site for the mingling phase. This included the CEO, Joss, Head of Corporate Affairs and Charles, Head of Planning & Development + a few of their team. The display itself is a large print of the noise footprint around the airport and a few pictures of the terminal.
The presentation started at 6:30 as advertised. There are basically 3 parts to it.
1. Details about the investment and improvement programme. There's nothing really here you won't have seen already in terms of images except I think one picture of the new security area. VH explained that the new security area will be in the old arrivals hall. There will be two escalators leading up a relocated World Duty Free (I assume roughly where the old Camden Food Court / Burger King used to be). They are planning to open this in March 2026, in time for next summer's peak season. The existing duty free will then be closed and 'repurposed'
He mentioned that as this work is already underway then at the busiest of busiest times, the security queue wouldn't be able to stretch back towards hall B, so the queue might end up being outside. They are constructing something to offer some protection (I think) and in his view, this would be required infrequently in the summer and not at all in the quieter autumn, winter months. But always possible it is lashing with wind and rain on the times it is needed
A question was asked about air bridges. No additional ones to be built. But one to be replaced. In response to a follow up question, he explained that Jet2 and Ryanair don't want to use bridges. This not about cost - the airport doesn't charge for them - but because it leads to slower turnaround times. These airlines prefer front and back stairs.
I think there was a question on lounges and he said they were aware of the feedback - with something of a wry smile - and they were listening.
Runway resurfacing was mentioned. £50m is the latest estimate they have. He seemed to suggest that it would take 5 years - presumably to avoid disruption - but maybe I misheard as that seems a long time.
2. The update on carbon emissions. Basically split into what the airport site can control - e.g electric vehicles, heating and lighting etc. Message here was they'll eliminate everything apart from emissions related to food refrigeration in the next few years. But he was very honest to acknowledge that the biggest source of emissions from the aviation industry were aircraft emissions and the transport emissions from people travelling to/from airports. There was then quite a complicated graph showing how these might change over time due to older aircraft being phased out and a host of other things. There was a more simpler chart showing the UK aviation emissions hadn't grown in the last 20 years despite a rise in passengers. His message being that things like older aircraft being phased out and next gen a/c coming on stream has had an impact in the past and this trend will continue.
3. The update on noise. Nothing too much add here to North South's update. The airport clearly have a lot of data and they use the services of the CAA (or a CAA approved supplier) to draw these noise contours. They take every single flight over the course of a year and, based on the aircraft type and routing, create a sort of average exposure to noise over a year. He was clear that this isn't the noise from a single aircraft landing or departing, but something to represent what living near the airport is like over a whole year. This is the accepted way to assess the impact, he said.
They also has some interesting charts showing how many homes were exposed to different levels of noise and how that is reducing over time and that a very small number of homes are exposed to the highest level. They get very few complaints and they come from a small number, of repeat complainers. He was actually very sympathetic towards people who are sensitive to noise and that it was a very personal thing. The airport have some mobile noise monitors and they placed one in the home of one of the regular complainants. It was a semi-detatched house and the guy in the adjoining house said "I never hear them at all". He also said they have someone who is insistent that night flying started after Covid and there hadn't been anything before. This person had 'tuned it out' in the 20 years before Covid, but the drop off in flights during Covid, meant it was a real shock when it came back. The airport had to print off and share all sorts of historic data to prove what had been happening since the mid 1990s. He wasn't being derogatory or sarcastic, but just acknowledging that one person's lived experience is not the same as someone else and that people themselves can change. Long and the short of it though, the people really troubled by it seem to be in a significant minority and the airport serves a much wider community.
In terms of questions that might be of interest to members here
- I think I caught someone asking at the end about upgrading the ILS on R14. Answer seemed be that the technology is there to do it, but the worldwide regulations need to be changed and approved to allow these new technologies to be used. He seemed hopeful this was underway - obvs not something LBA is leading, just a change that will apply to all airports world-wide, and LBA could benefit.
- Target is still 7m passengers in the next 5 years. In response to a question about how big could it ever get, e.g. what's the absolute max it could ever handle, the answer was 11m. Basically think of Bristol today.
- They included a slide on the CLUED process. It didn't generate much interest at all really. He defended Leeds City Council though and said this process is entirely about legal opinion and interpretation of planning law. It isn't a planning application or an amendment where the council get to express a preference and apply their own planning policy or to balance the needs of different groups. He also said that the inspector agreed with LBA's interpretation of the planning rules but that the inspector didn't agree the airport had proven there had been a 10 year continuous breach under planning law.
- Total air passenger trips taken by people starting or ending their journey in Yorkshire and Humberside is currently 13m, of which LBA handles 4.2m. Of the remaining 9m, most go to Manchester and London. He acknowledged that some of these would be on wide body long haul flights, but a very large amount of the remainder were taken by people often travelling to destinations served by LBA, on airlines that operate out of LBA. So there's a big opportunity
- He mentioned that LBA currently makes just 50p profit per passenger compared to over £3 at Manchester and £10 at Heathrow.
Everything presented here is arranged for neatness, but in reality as NS says, it bounced around all over the place. Mostly an elderly couple who I suspect had they been handed a million pounds would have complained about the colour of the bag it came in. They complained in equal measure about the noise and the fact the airport was like a 'third world' airport and why wasn't he providing more seats, more comfort, more investment. From what I could tell, the small number of people who did complain were actually users of the airport. Even the guy making his pitch that earth was on its last legs said that flying and travelling was great. But in light of the existential threat to his children and their children, he'd just be taking a flight once every three years now.
Did he win them over? Not the eco-guy who stormed out because he couldn't; believe that the discussion had moved onto something as trivial as noise. "I can't be in the same room as these crazy people" seemed to be his parting shot. I don't know whether he was taking about people complaining about noise or the rest of us. But in terms of the other two couples, maybe. He dispelled some myths, was honest about the ambition of the airport and clear that its the airlines that fly the planes and they do so in response to people (like them) booking tickets and wanting to travel. The airport is incentivising quieter aircraft and LBA currently has the oldest (and therefore noisiest) based fleet of any UK airport, so it should be entirely possible for bigger, quieter more fuel efficient planes to replace them. It's inevitable this will happen - just as Chapter 2 aircraft were banned in the early 2000s, so Mr Hodder predicted that 737-300s and older 800s would be banned eventually. His hope is that the airport can make itself attractive to airlines and passengers and the fleet replacement happens sooner rather than later.
His closing remark was, how would people feel if it closed and to take a look at the reaction of people and politicians in Doncaster about what's happening down there. Predictably the aforementioned elderly couple were aghast at the idea it might close.
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