Future Infrastructure Developments

[airforced]

As for the escalator, the H&S issue relates to circulation space at the top and bottom, so replacing the escalator won't work. You can't have an escalator that just stops without warning whilst passengers are half way up it. There is insufficient space for it to operate safely (according to latest H&S legislation) and structural building works are therefore likely to resolve it. Again, LBA are very much aware of the problem and the need to resolve it. I have raised it previously and it was raised again yesterday by others, so it isn't a subject that is going to go away any time soon. They know it has to be sorted, along with other issues such as the baggage reclaim area. Hopefully it will feature in the plans to be published soon?

White Heather please don't take this response as, in any way shape or form, as criticism of you or the work you do on the Consultative Ctte together with the prompt and comprehensive reports you provide on here.

However I have to say that I am more in tune with the comments and sentiment expressed in an earlier post by lbia. It does sound very much as though management are 'hiding' behind the H & S devil rather than finding a solution because there would be a cost implication. I think this is echoed by Tarn Spotter in a later post.

It is as though passengers comfort and ease of passing through the terminal is inconsequential in the greater scheme of things unless there is an opportunity for some retail on the way.

I have just read the dissertation by TheLocalYokel about his local airport (BRS) and very interesting it was too. For a poorly located airport with similar problems to LBA (weather, short runway, poor communications etc etc) they are now at about 6m pax per year and have spent or are spending an arm and a leg on improvements that will help them grow and endear them to the traveling public as they seem to be very aware of the benefits of looking after their clients. This sort of thought process doesn't seem to have filtered down to LBA management yet though!

Short rant over but I'm sure there will be many more opportunities to revisit this subject in the future.

 

[White Heather]

I find it amazing that there are posts effectively accusing LBA of not spending the money to sort out the escalator when they have just spent £14m on the terminal, plus a good few million also on new drainage from the apron, to comply with Environment Agency requirements, plus car park improvements so people can avoid paying the drop off charge in the long term car park. A reality check is required. Bridgepoint do not have a bottomless pit of money and the works have to be phased. They acknowledge that the situation is not acceptable and will deal with it but like any business they have to balance expenditure with income. In the greater scheme of things an escalator is not huge money but the works surrounding it would be significant. It is not just the escalator - the whole area needs sorting out, so what you are suggesting is spending money now (on top of the £14m) to do a short fix, when in the future the entire area needs a complete re-build. That makes no financial sense.

As for the H&S issue, I have managed building projects and am fully aware of the implications of ever changing H&S legislation.What is fine one day, becomes unacceptable the next. Assurances were given by the airport MD that they do not have a choice. There is nothing wrong with the escalator, it is in full working order, but H&S say it must be switched off because there is insufficient circulation space at the bottom and the top, especially when there is queuing going on for immigration at peak times. Putting someone top and bottom would make no difference and could end up causing a further queue at the bottom going out onto the road outside were people to be held back.

I can only suggest that if there is such disagreement about this and so much mistrust of LBA management as to their motives for not fixing this, then members should write to the MD to express them. He usually provides a full reply, which I am sure will include the fact that help can be requested at the escalator or booked in advance, as is the case at all airports.

 

[User0001]

As I've mentioned before, the airlines pay a pittance to use the airport. The latest airport accounts show they received £6.8m from airlines and it costs roughly £22m to run the airport - before of course any investment is considered. £6.8m from 2.94m passengers, means the airlines are paying on average £2.31 per passenger movement. Trust me when I say, that is very cheap.

I don't think anyone disagrees with the idea that the airport would benefit from investment in a number of areas, but we continually come back to the point of how this could be funded. Would the airlines be prepared to pay more? Would the passengers stomach even more charges for parking, security etc or even more shops instead of seating and circulation space ? It's a dilemma. Bridgepoint have invested millions to get the airport to where it is today, but it's not unreasonable to expect them to want a return on that investment and they are not going to keep throwing money into a bottomless pit.

 

[wawkrk]

The switching off of the escalator because of the elf & safety numpties really annoys me.
It's all well and and good saying if a passenger has difficulty with the steps then they should ask for wheelchair assistance. If all people with problems did so, they would need a hell of a lot of wheelchairs. I have a knee cartlidge problem so the the steps are painful for me but no way would I ask for a wheelchair. I find the airports attitude towards this problem a disgrace.

 

[Tarn Spotter]

White Heather:
Have been there when queues stretch back to the escalator.
It is easy to remove these queues and ensure no build up at the bottom of the escalator, I could put measures in which wont depend on the number of passport staff, this is just an issue of people movement.
I think the management have done a great job in the way the airports facilities have been enchanced, however, although I can see solutions, these would have a knock on effect on turn round times.
Seems to me the airport believes the needs of the airlines are far more important then the customer.
I worked in a world (retail) where the customer came first.
Their are solutions which are not expensive, just hard if not impossible to sell to the airlines.

 

[White Heather]

Tarn Spotter, I would suggest that if you have solutions to the problems that do not cost significant amounts of money and do not contravene H&S, write to the airport MD and tell him what they are.

Wawkrk, how is LBA complying with H&S directives a disgrace? What would be a disgrace is ignoring H&S directives, and a customer getting injured as a result. Again, I would suggest that if you have a solution, or a complain, you write to LBA. Some time ago you complained (quite rightly) about having to walk back from your flight to the terminal in pouring rain and a howling gail, an it happened to be on the afternoon of the consultative comittee, so I witnessed the conditions that day. The matter was raised and LBA included a covered walkway in the terminal works, so they do listen, but to all members, PLEASE remember I am simply reporting what is discussed at the committee. Each time I do so, I seem to be taken to task for the decisions of the airport. If you have a complaint about the information I pass on , you need to tell the airport MD, not me. I am only able to raise a limited number of issues at meetings, every 3 months and I will only do so if I consider them reasonable issues for discussion. Your letters to the MD will have far more impact.

 

[Tarn Spotter]

White Heather:
Flying out this coming week will take pictures and then as you say write to the MD. As this is will benefit me as well as other travellers a worthwhile cause.
Is it possible for you to put up the MD's contact address.
Any news I will relay.

 

[White Heather]

Tarn spotter, thanks for doing that.

You just need to address it to Mr John Parkin, MD, Leeds Bradford International Airport, Yeadon, Leeds, LS19 7TU


Heather

 

[wawkrk]

Heather, I was not complaining about the airport ignoring H&S regulations.
I was complaining about the airport not do anything about it over many years.

 

[ChurchFenton]

White Heather,

On a separate matter, I'd be very grateful if you could advise whether any comment or detail has been discussed at the meetings with regard to improvements for this summer to the number of transfer buses available for pax needing to reach aircraft on stands beyond the new covered walkway? I know this is something which was mentioned as a problem by a number of people on here last summer. I myself was a 'victim' of this last June, having landed at LBA at 1.30am to then have to wait on the aircraft for an additional 25 mins afterwards until buses arrived. The reason being given by the flight crew was that it was 'due to the airport being very busy', which at 1.30am was not something most passengers (including myself) found particularly satisfactory.

 

[White Heather]

Church Fenton, the only mention of the buses at last weeks meeting was in relation to a question whether or not the airlines paid LBA for the use of the coaches to de-plane their aircraft (and the answer to that was no).

I do vaguely remember in a past meeting something being said about additional buses being available this summer, but I cannot remember the detail - apologies.

 

[lbia]

The buses are provided as part of the service agreement contract that each airline has with the Airport. For example one Airline may stipulate that buses must be waiting on the stand when the aircraft arrives, other Airlines may say they require 1 bus per 60 passengers for example.

When the Airport do not meet this service agreement, they pay a marginal fine to the Airlines. Each month the Airport fails dramatically on this agreement, with often only 2 buses in operation for multiple arrivals. In relation to Church Fenton's question, after approx 22:00, Servisair will only allocate two members of staff to drive coaches, so the typical time to offload a 757, for example, may be up to 40 minutes as a minimum of 4 buses are required. As the bus drivers are also Servisair baggage handlers, if a Servisair handled aircraft arrives, the same men may me required to offload bags etc. Unfortunately, the fines delivered to the Airlines is considerably less than it would cost to operate more buses - no guessing that saving £££ is more important then delivering customer service standards. This is a hot topic between the Airlines and LBA at the moment. The Airline's argument is that the Airport allocate the parking stands for each flight so the Airport know usually 12 hours in advance where an Aircraft is parking, so if they know this why are resources not used better.

One Airline (no names mentioned) is particularly fed up of these shocking customer service levels that they proposed to park each Aircraft on a walking/Airbridge stand and once it is disembarked, they would tow it to a remote stand for overnight parking, hence cutting out the often painful waits for buses. Airlines do not pay for the buses as such, but this cost is built into the contract. Therefore, the Airline mentioned said it would be a win-win situation for all parties concerned and they would in turn expect some sort of reduction in fees as transfer coaches were not needed, saving the Airport money. Of course the Airport do not hear tell of any suggestions other than what THEY come up with, hence why nothing is EVER changed or made better for customers.

White Heather, my (and a LOT of others) frustrations come from the fact that the management at LBA are all talk, yes, they will make it clear they are 'aware' of the problems, and the MD may write a lovely (no doubt template letter by his secretary) out to people that complain, but the simple fact is that NOTHING is actually changed, if it will either cost the Airport more, or earn them less money in the long run. The management are expert sales men, and they do a very good job at it, but they are exactly that. Sales men. None of them are operational managers, most never even go airside let alone actually watch how the Airport functions, or should I say, not function.

Getting back to the escalator issue, the management state that members of LBA staff will operate the escalator at peak times. Well I class when two Jet2's and a Ryanair land at the same time a pretty much as peak as it gets with regard to using the dreaded escalator, but are there ever any LBA staff there to turn it on? Take a guess. They only ever come if the Airline/Handling agent pester the Terminal Duty Manager. One Airline (again no names mentioned) have requested that their staff hold keys to operate the escalator as they physically walk the customers into and up the stairs, but no the Airport will not do this for some unknown reason. Communication between the MD and the office bods and the actual operation staff that run the airport is diabolical. I'm sure Mr Parkin is under the impression that this escalator is not actually much of a problem, because he doesn't have to deal with it, and someone of a lower rank tells him that it is operated by LBA staff when needed. Great, problem solved. NOT.

Like I have said before, yes it's great what has been done to LBA over the last 12 months, BUT as the saying goes, you cannot polish a turd but you can mold it. They have attempted to polish and modernise a horrendously lacking building with shocking infrastructure. However, simple and YES very simple molding can dramatically solve a lot of these problems. For anyone that does not work within the Airport, it is very hard to detail just HOW frustrating things are. There is no getting around that bringing in extra airlines, sprucing up the shops is all great, but the fundamentals of operating an Airport have not been seriously thought through. The management have looked at what will get them the best return before they move onto their new project. I'm not knocking them for that, as it happens ALL the time in pretty much every industry. The thing that gets me is all this 'we're aware of the problems' keeps coming up time and time again but NOTHING is ever done about it. If the top level management actually cared about these problems, then why the F*** not sort them out!

It makes me laugh how each year, something different is done to central screening, whether they change it around then build a door then knock it down next year, then built some partition wall and move it around a bit more, then knock half of it down. Then put a few more barriers and build another door. Then knock it down again. Anything that does not make them any money, is given the least bit of attention or funding and the bare minimum is done. I don't care how many people disagree with me, but that simply is NOT a good way to run an Airport. Things are only ever changed at LBA when they are taken to court over something, that is NOT how an Airport should be run. With the considerably higher volumes of passengers using the airport this summer, it really will take an elderly passengers to collapse in the walkway or fall on the steps until a lift or escalator are put in.

Like I have said in previous posts, three of the main Airlines at LBA are all very concerned about these shocking customer service standards. Surprisingly, one airline that is not usually bothered about customer service is one of the key players in this issue. If they give a S*** about this, then there is clearly something behind this, maybe someone should tell that to Mr Parkin. These three Airlines have been in discussions with each other and expansion from the three Airlines has been halted until further notice, and that is pretty common knowledge around the Airport now. Not a good state of affairs at all.

 

[SNOWMAN]

lbia
well said lbia, thanks for bring this out in the open if the media get hold of this something may get done about it(i hope).
regards
sm1

ps it would take me 2days to type your post/.

 

[airforced]

Heather, I was not complaining about the airport ignoring H&S regulations.
I was complaining about the airport not do anything about it over many years.

It seems this discussion is going to rumble on for a while yet which indicates to me that people who are interested in LBA doing well care sufficiently to comment on here about the third world experience of LBA Arrivals.

wawkrk is quite right in what he says. I can't imagine that the Arrivals experience we have endured for years now, and will continue to endure for some considerable time to come it appears, is what the Welcome to Yorkshire promoters had in mind when formulating their campaign for boosting tourism in the region.

Us locals know what to expect when we get off the plane but the uninitiated foreign guests we are encouraging to visit our shores via our local international airport probably can't even begin to imagine what awaits them. The whole arrivals experience ( I won't spell it all out again but you know what I mean ) is an abomination for this day and age and the airport authority should be ashamed of themselves for not doing something about before now.

If the lengthy post lbia has made is accurate it seems there is also a groundswell of discontent amongst the stakeholders of our airports future too.

 

[lbaspotter]

Wel i can guess 2 of the said airlines that lbia wont mention has to be jet2 and ryanair.

1, ryanair have not expanded as usual this summer and have consolidated operations on 3x based aircraft. This year they will be only flying exsisting routes while expanding from everywhere else nearby, eg Manchester, Liverpool and East Midlands.

2, jet2 has to be another seen as they are by far the largest airline based at LBA. Limited growth over the past couple of years now from here while growing everywhere else. Also its known that Jet2 do park aircraft near the walking stands or use the air bidges. They then have aircraft tugged to the remote stands for overnight parking. The aircraft are normally then re-tugged from remote parking to the stands near the terminal after the first wave of flights have left the next morning.

Who the 3rd airline is anyones guess. I would be surprised if it was either British Airways, Monarch Airlines, Thomson Airways or Pakistan International seen as they have or will be expanding shortly.
So that leaves us bmi regional, oh forgot they pulling out but have been here for a long time and are well in at LBA. Thomas Cook have already gone and been replaced now by Monarch.
KLM could be possible. But they are adding a 4th daily flight to Amsterdam this summer again, so they can't be that unhappy. They have also used the new Embrear 190's this month along with them having piority use of the stand 7 air bridge.
I suppose Flybe are possible seen as they have pulled 4 routes in recent years. Aberdeen, Exeter, Knock and Gatwick but there in quite a bad way at the moment themselfs so might not be in a position to have a go at the minute.
Eastern Airways, Loganair and City Wing (when they operate) don't carry that many passengers trhough LBA so I would be really surprised to hear it was any off them invovled. They also get there aircraft parked next to terminal most of time so don't require the use of busses for there passengers.

I wonder if anyone has the guts to name and shame the said 3 airlines involved in this pack??? As i'm sure the airports managerment would like to know whats going on behide there backs....

 

[a300boy]

I arrived on the EXS186 from Malaga and the experience was much as described a full load of passengers crammed on two buses [ very unpleasant ] several comments made by the passengers to the driver about overcrowding , then the infamous escalator brought more comments. Passport control went well and around 10 mins for the bags to arrive so no problems on that score. It would seem these points need to be stressed the management and it would seem they need to put more effort into sorting out problems that the operators and staff bring to their attention. I will be putting my thoughts in writing today.

 

[Sherburnflyer92]

I wonder if anyone has the guts to name and shame the said 3 airlines involved in this pack???

SHAME. Think they should be congratulated for doing what they are doing. The airport is (good) compared to what is was but its stills hit. The layout (is good compared) but still sh*t. I mean a lounge next to the WHSmith where the majority of passengers will pass through. Shouldn't this have a feel of being 'private'?

The security area do not get me started. I'm angry thinking about it. We are the only airport i know that has a door seperating arrivals and departures, but also the departure lounge AND arrival lanes. What a horrific layout.

 

[User0001]

wonder if anyone has the guts to name and shame the said 3 airlines involved in this pack??? As i'm sure the airports management would like to know whats going on behide there backs....

So, let me get this straight.

These airlines are unhappy at the customer experience at LBA, and have made some form of 'informal protest' that they want things to, rightly, change.

And you want to turn it into a witch hunt and indicate that somehow they are in the wrong for wanting things to improved? You cannot force an airline to expand. If they [airlines], see that either the airport cannot handle the customers either safely, or in this case, in a positive experience, they are fully within their right to say 'no more until its improved'. They could even pull out if they deemed a strong enough case!

Im sorry but I think your emotions are clouding your sense of rationalisation in this case.

 

[lbaspotter]

So, let me get this straight.

These airlines are unhappy at the customer experience at LBA, and have made some form of 'informal protest' that they want things to, rightly, change.

And you want to turn it into a witch hunt and indicate that somehow they are in the wrong for wanting things to improved? You cannot force an airline to expand. If they [airlines], see that either the airport cannot handle the customers either safely, or in this case, in a positive experience, they are fully within their right to say 'no more until its improved'. They could even pull out if they deemed a strong enough case!

Im sorry but I think your emotions are clouding your sense of rationalisation in this case.

Only thing I would like to know at this time is the identity of the 3 said airlines (I know this might not be possible for reasons) that are involved in this supposed pack that want the airport to make changes for the better and are currently said to be holding off any further expansion plans until these changes are implemented.

Surely its better for the 3 said airlines to oust themselves to show that they know the airport experience is not good enough and can be further improved. By doing so, It will let airlines tell their passengers that they know something is wrong and that they are working on their behalf to get them to have a better airport experience. Which at the end of the days is what we all want in the long run...

 

[User0001]

But, it was the way you put it originally.

I wonder if anyone has the guts to name and shame the said 3 airlines involved in this pack??? As i'm sure the airports management would like to know whats going on behide there backs....

First off, saying 'name and shame the 3 airlines'. This implies that they are doing something wrong by holding off expansion. Quite frankly, they are entitled to do so, even if there is no legitimate reason behind it. They make the decisions on routes, frequency and aircraft based, not the airport.

Secondly, Im sure the management are fully aware of the situation, and it not going on 'behind there backs'. After all, I very much doubt Stephen McNamara has said to Tony Hallwood 'Ryanair will not be expanding until you improve things, but, Im not telling you what those things are, you have to guess'.