Manchester Airport - General Thread

[David_itl]

So this is an initiative to promote the North. For those who bemoan that it's to the exclusion of the other cities/airports in the region, all I will say is look at the networks at those airports those cities have - limited network carriers with lots of lo-cos offering variable frequency with potentially different timings every day.

If I were a non-European business traveller with dealings in and around the Merseyside area, there may be a very slight advantage is routing "elsewhere"-DUB-LPL (if there is, please elucidate!) but otherwise if you are that parochial that MAN is out of the question have fun routing "elsewhere"-LHR/LGW-train to Liverpool Choice of:

Arrive at LHR before 7am and get through security in around an hour. Get the 7.57am train out of T5 that calls at T2/T3 to get to Paddington. After alighting at Paddington, make your way to Euston. Then board the train at Euston to get to Liverpool. Hopefully you'll arrive by 11.20am. Oh, don't forget to factor in £187 for the cost of that journey at that time and £113.90 after 8.27am!

or

Arrive at LGW before 7am and get through security in around an hour. Get the 8.49am train out to Victoria (assuming you don't want to split your London-Liverpool journey at Crewe) . At Victoria, get a tube to Euston. Then board the train at Euston to get to Liverpool. Hopefully you'll arrive by 12.20pm. Oh, don't forget to factor in £95 for the cost of that journey at that time. You can book specific trains for £26.00 (10.30am and 11.30am)

Then the MAN alternative:

arrive at MAN by 9am and get through security in an hour. Get the non-stop train from MAN to Liverpool at 10.40 at a cost of £6.50 and arrive at 11.40.

Routing to Merseyside via DUB means that it's a case of self-connecting onto Ryanair or if coming in via CDG/AMS on easyJet. Would you really want to be rushing around if the long-haul sector was running slightly late so lessening the time for you to get through the terminal? Make it late and then you've got a new ticket to buy. Factor in that the business traveller is also likely to have more than hand luggage which further complicates the matter.

For Yorkshire, you have an advantage over Liverpool in that you also have the LHR and AMS alternatives for connecting at those hubs but you are at the whit and whim of BA and KL cancelling services.

There can be no harm in pooling resources at MAN to "educate" the traveller about these parts of the country. In the fullness of time, there may well be scope for LPL and LBA to garner traffic that allows an airline to operate A321NEOLRs on long-haul routes from there (witness Wow Air is doing LAX-KEF on that type so there's a range of destinations that may become viable) . But the important bit is to get passengers to understand that to reach the north of England means you do not need to actually route in via AMS, CDG, DUB or LHR first.

Indeed, getting passengers past the London hurdle is benefitting the northern economy... just the other day, Cumbria Tourism said of the Lake District:

"The accolade of double world heritage site status further underlines our world class credentials. New flights into Northern England from China, the USA and Europe are also helping increase visitor numbers from other parts of the globe, and the development of Carlisle Airport opens up even more new possibilities for 2018."

http://www.thewestmorlandgazette.co...rnational_visitors_flocking_to_Lake_District/

 

[Aviador]

Maybe I'm approaching this from the wrong angle. Maybe this basically highlights the lack of emphasis by the other northern airports to focus on their strengths where as Manchester airport excels in this field so fair play to them.

 

[Silvercity]

Maybe I'm approaching this from the wrong angle. Maybe this basically highlights the lack of emphasis by the other northern airports to focus on their strengths where as Manchester airport excels in this field so fair play to them.

The other Northern Airports should hopefully expand by othering more European services , leaving Manchester to look after longer haul service . I think it's fare to say people are more happy to travel further to Manchester if they are flying to somewhere like Singapore, but if it's Amsterdam or Rome a more local departure would be preferred . It's both ways too, it' much more attractive for someone in Barcelona who wants a weekend in Liverpool or Leeds to land at that city .

 

[Silvercity]

I also believe it is desirable to build railway links to both Liverpool and Leeds / Bradford . Make it easy for people to not think about using their cars. The station has worked at Manchester Airport , so let's do the same for the other Northern Airports. These would be big project to improve connectivity for the future and I would say put this ahead of HS2,

 

[Seasider]

I can catch a train from home to London in 3.5 hours, max 5 hrs to LHR. If booked in advance (I usually plan my trips in advance) I can get a train ticket for £25 +£10 tube. I can catch a train to MAN from home in 3.5 hours at a cost of £45.
If using LHR, I can travel on the day of my flight, if using MAN earliest I get there is 11am which precludes any flights that leave before 1pm so severely restricts where I can go, or if you have to stop overnight then the cost is increased by at least £50.

I am travelling to Canada/States, in the near future, organised by a group and we are flying from MAN to Toronto - via LHR. How many flights are there between the 2 cities? Someone's choice.

You can't make people use a particular airport, only encourage them. So when we talk about the "Northern Powerhouse", let's talk about expanding services from all northern airports.

 

[Silvercity]

I can catch a train from home to London in 3.5 hours, max 5 hrs to LHR. If booked in advance (I usually plan my trips in advance) I can get a train ticket for £25 +£10 tube. I can catch a train to MAN from home in 3.5 hours at a cost of £45.
If using LHR, I can travel on the day of my flight, if using MAN earliest I get there is 11am which precludes any flights that leave before 1pm so severely restricts where I can go, or if you have to stop overnight then the cost is increased by at least £50.

I am travelling to Canada/States, in the near future, organised by a group and we are flying from MAN to Toronto - via LHR. How many flights are there between the 2 cities? Someone's choice.

You can't make people use a particular airport, only encourage them. So when we talk about the "Northern Powerhouse", let's talk about expanding services from all northern airports.

Indeed and public transport between all the major cities in the north, if The Northern Powerhouse is going to gain support it must benefit everywhere.

 

[David_itl]

You can't make people use a particular airport, only encourage them. So when we talk about the "Northern Powerhouse", let's talk about expanding services from all northern airports.

Which MAN has no problem with. Though with LPL and LBA craving enhanced LHR operations I do question whether those airports are doing the right thing instead of getting more European routes.

Hopefully you are not suggesting that because MAN has a certain route ALL the northern airports must have that route as well? One of the earliest statistics I can remember for the AA service to Chicago was than about 40% of the passengers came from Yorkshire. Using the above mentality, instead of having AA with 1 profitable service, we'd have them with 2 unprofitable services to Northern England and ultimately NO service to Chicago from the region. There must be a reason why the hub carriers have tried services at various northern airports yet the MAN ones tend to stick with the other airports routes having been withdrawn.

Even easyJet trialled Brussels out of LPL before any other UK airport (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-12380031) but that route's not around. When Ryanair had their arguments with MAN, they said they'd move all services across to LPL apart from a couple. They didn't.. one does have to question why. If the market is not there for even the lo-cos then perhaps it's the utopia view that some people have that needs to be called into question (and yes, I do remember the attempts by Jet2 to operate 3 daily to LGW, AMS and EDI out of MAN or their Brive experiment for example, so even MAN isn't immune from not having a market for some services).

As for the train fares, I actually looked at the fares/times for 16th April so call it nearly 3 months from now to help try to minimise those costs. Which is something that I regularly do when I am doing my week long excursions travelling up and down the country taking photos... and having never spent more than £250 on train fares in any given week's holiday despite leaving in peak periods. Certainly choosing a weekend arrival should see train fares reduced but factor in that not everybody is going to travel then and potentially fewer trains operating so those cheaper options may not be suitable.

Yes, it's annoying that MAN only has most long-haul routes departing well before 11am but with airlines throwing lots of capacity into multiple daily routes out of London to cater for a small percentage of travellers who seemingly cannot wait more than a couple of hours for the next available flight when the regions get the token daily service and the "use it or lose it" ultimatum. Maybe passengers should do what my brother has done on his world-wide trips.... he leaves Exeter the day before the trip to get to a hotel in/around the Heathrow area, even if his flight is not due to depart until late afternoon the following day.

 

[Silvercity]

Which MAN has no problem with. Though with LPL and LBA craving enhanced LHR operations I do question whether those airports are doing the right thing instead of getting more European routes.

Hopefully you are not suggesting that because MAN has a certain route ALL the northern airports must have that route as well? One of the earliest statistics I can remember for the AA service to Chicago was than about 40% of the passengers came from Yorkshire. Using the above mentality, instead of having AA with 1 profitable service, we'd have them with 2 unprofitable services to Northern England and ultimately NO service to Chicago from the region. There must be a reason why the hub carriers have tried services at various northern airports yet the MAN ones tend to stick with the other airports routes having been withdrawn.

Even easyJet trialled Brussels out of LPL before any other UK airport (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-12380031) but that route's not around. When Ryanair had their arguments with MAN, they said they'd move all services across to LPL apart from a couple. They didn't.. one does have to question why. If the market is not there for even the lo-cos then perhaps it's the utopia view that some people have that needs to be called into question (and yes, I do remember the attempts by Jet2 to operate 3 daily to LGW, AMS and EDI out of MAN or their Brive experiment for example, so even MAN isn't immune from not having a market for some services).

As for the train fares, I actually looked at the fares/times for 16th April so call it nearly 3 months from now to help try to minimise those costs. Which is something that I regularly do when I am doing my week long excursions travelling up and down the country taking photos... and having never spent more than £250 on train fares in any given week's holiday despite leaving in peak periods. Certainly choosing a weekend arrival should see train fares reduced but factor in that not everybody is going to travel then and potentially fewer trains operating so those cheaper options may not be suitable.

Yes, it's annoying that MAN only has most long-haul routes departing well before 11am but with airlines throwing lots of capacity into multiple daily routes out of London to cater for a small percentage of travellers who seemingly cannot wait more than a couple of hours for the next available flight when the regions get the token daily service and the "use it or lose it" ultimatum. Maybe passengers should do what my brother has done on his world-wide trips.... he leaves Exeter the day before the trip to get to a hotel in/around the Heathrow area, even if his flight is not due to depart until late afternoon the following day.

I don' t believe there will be any new LPL-LHR route anytime soon, Flybe said they were keen to begin a service but I'm not sure that was all talk. Liverpool needs more European links and I would rather see more of those. Existing LoCo services are well.suported there is no reason why more destinations can't be added. Brussels is one that ought to be there.

 

[Coathanger16]

Hopefully you are not suggesting that because MAN has a certain route ALL the northern airports must have that route as well? One of the earliest statistics I can remember for the AA service to Chicago was than about 40% of the passengers came from Yorkshire. Using the above mentality, instead of having AA with 1 profitable service, we'd have them with 2 unprofitable services to Northern England and ultimately NO service to Chicago from the region. There must be a reason why the hub carriers have tried services at various northern airports yet the MAN ones tend to stick with the other airports routes having been withdrawn.

I think what people are suggesting is that it is just long haul should be focused at Manchester. As you point out, having anything but New York, Orlando or a ME hub operating from more than 1 Northern airport will likely be unsustainable.

On the other hand, there's no reason why multiple northern airports can't operate the same short haul route. To use the argument of there's no service because there's no demand is flawed because if you applied that logic to all airports/routes then no new routes would be announced. It may sound picky, but if you were to say there's not sufficient demand yet then fair enough. Even then, there may be sufficient demand for an airline to operate the route but they are currently unable to due to say lack of aircraft or slots at the destination.

If someone was wanting to travel from Liverpool to Los Angeles then whilst they'd prefer to fly direct from LPL, most if not all would find it acceptable to fly direct from MAN (or from LPL via somewhere else e.g. DUB/AMS).

On the other hand, if someone was wanting to travel from Liverpool to Brussels, I'd say its fair of them to expect to be able to fly direct from LPL and that they shouldn't have to travel to MAN (or any other airport) for a direct/non-stop flight.

As for why Northern airports are advocating direct services to LHR, firstly someone travelling LPL-LHR-JFK is better for the airport than that same person travelling MAN-JFK - car parking, drop off fares, duty free shopping, etc = more income for the airport. And secondly (I'm not 100% sure how statistics work) but if LPL can show they have x amount of passengers flying LPL to New York via LHR/DUB etc then they can use that to encourage an airline to launch LPL to JFK/EWR. If those passengers are instead travelling direct from MAN, is the data still there and if it is will it be as persuasive - a non stop option would be preferable over transferring via LHR/DUB, but if passengers are happy to fly non-stop from MAN then why should an airline launch a service from LPL (that depending on the airline may affect their yield from MAN). The argument could be applied to any Northern Airport.

Just to clarify, just because MAN has direct flights to Chicago, Los Angeles, Singapore, Hong Kong, Beijing, etc, we're not saying that every Northern airport should have direct flights to those airports. Whilst there are some obscure short haul destinations, is it so unreasonable for any given short haul destination to be available from any Northern airport?

 

[Seasider]

Which MAN has no problem with. Though with LPL and LBA craving enhanced LHR operations I do question whether those airports are doing the right thing instead of getting more European routes.

Can you explain the craving (strong term) for enhanced LHR operations when in LBA's case they are only asking for the status quo ie the level of service at present to be maintained?


Hopefully you are not suggesting that because MAN has a certain route ALL the northern airports must have that route as well? One of the earliest statistics I can remember for the AA service to Chicago was than about 40% of the passengers came from Yorkshire. Using the above mentality, instead of having AA with 1 profitable service, we'd have them with 2 unprofitable services to Northern England and ultimately NO service to Chicago from the region. There must be a reason why the hub carriers have tried services at various northern airports yet the MAN ones tend to stick with the other airports routes having been withdrawn.

No, I am not suggesting that all northern airports have the same routes as MAN. In fact I believe that long haul should be left to MAN and to keep the "balance" MAN should withdraw from some European routes, but we know that will not happen.

Yes, it's annoying that MAN only has most long-haul routes departing well before 11am but with airlines throwing lots of capacity into multiple daily routes out of London to cater for a small percentage of travellers who seemingly cannot wait more than a couple of hours for the next available flight when the regions get the token daily service and the "use it or lose it" ultimatum. Maybe passengers should do what my brother has done on his world-wide trips.... he leaves Exeter the day before the trip to get to a hotel in/around the Heathrow area, even if his flight is not due to depart until late afternoon the following day.

I do not want the cost of an overnight stay in addition the extra time away from my family.

 

[Seasider]

I don't think I have got my quotes right for the above post but hopefully if read carefully you will be able to read my "bits"

 

[Aviador]

There are a small number of long haul routes that would clearly work from other northern regional airports alongside the Manchester routes. Orlando is a perfect example with nearly as many passengers travelling on the Manchester to Orlando route as the Manchester to Faro route. If the same rule was applied at Leeds that would be around 200,000 passengers. Undoubtedly Manchester would take a hit initially on these routes but there are so many other long haul routes that can only work from one northern airport. In these circumstances Manchester airport will obviously be the preferred airport to offer those flights.

 

[Silvercity]

There are a small number of long haul routes that would clearly work from other northern regional airports alongside the Manchester routes. Orlando is a perfect example with nearly as many passengers travelling on the Manchester to Orlando route as the Manchester to Faro route. If the same rule was applied at Leeds that would be around 200,000 passengers. Undoubtedly Manchester would take a hit initially on these routes but there are so many other long haul routes that can only work from one northern airport. In these circumstances Manchester airport will obviously be the preferred airport to offer those flights.

A PIA route from LBA I'm sure would work.

 

[mullion]

It didn`t a few years ago with the A310 now the B777 is too big

 

[a300boy]

Yes it did work but they retired the A310s and didnt fancy operating a B777 into Leeds.

 

[Silvercity]

Yes it did work but they retired the A310s and didnt fancy operating a B777 into Leeds.

Might have been worth a go with 777 generally more people are travelling year on year

 

[Scottie Dog]

Carl, I think that operating a 777 direct to Pakistan from Leeds might have been a bit too much - allowing for runway restrictions etc.

 

[David_itl]

Indeed look at the "thickest" of the the MAN routes and they are the ones that should be explored. Sometimes it's not even the "thick" routes that need a 2nd look - I remember Braathens operating for years on a daily basis between NCL,Oslo Stavanger and Bergen - it's now only bmi operating to Stavanger. Could they be persuaded to look at the other 2 routes? It's a bit unfortunate that some of the continental hubs are a bit squeezed for capacity so it's not just a case of playing other regional UK airports against MAN bit other regional UK airports against mainland Europe regional airports

How much of a marketing disadvantage is doing a double drop for long-haul charters flights? Would anyone consider doing a LPL-LBA-Orlando routing 3 times a week. The A321NEOLR is what I've advised is an aircraft that screams opportunites for the smaller regionail airports (but I'm not altogether sure that I'd being approaching Primera Air!). Worth bearing in mind that the Los Angleles-Keflavik route is 4,300 miles. Leeds-Dubai is a "mere" 3,500 miles.... could FlyDubai be persuaded to open up the smaller UK citiies?

LBA should be targetting air Blue to operate an Islamabad link. What destroyed them at MAN was the A340 - when they were doing A320/A321 operations with a tech stop in Istanbul, they appeared to be holding their own against PIA.

Seems very strange to be on a MAN thread talking about how to grow the northern routes by displacing passengers "back" to their nearest airport but it should result in a bit more "local" passengers getting onto the MAN routes, thereby growing the overall northern UK-overseas market.

 

[Aviador]

Its a case of the Nothern Powerhouse needing a comprehensive aviation strategy that supports growth from all its airports in a way that is beneficial to the entire northern region. If there's a colaborated effort it would benefit flights from Manchester and from other northern airports too.

 

[mullion]

The Pakistan market is very difficult and virtually nobody makes any money
PIA are bleeding money as did Blue Air and Shaheen and it was fight to the bottom
wrong aircraft, poor safety, corruption within the airlines and government and customers
that demand low prices and then carry so much baggage they need their own aircraft