KLM

[White Heather]

And looks like KLM City Hopper are re-taking over the LBA-AMS route tonight.

As Embraer 175, PH-EXU is now flight planned to operate this evening night-stopper.

That went well then!

 

[lbaspotter]

That went well then!

Not sure if it’s temporary or permanent move by KLM.

I hope it’s not just coincidence that one of Eastern’s E190’s G-CMZI has gone off and operated a NCL-LTN-NCL footie charter today instead of operating for KLM.

 

[Finger66]

Two things for me here:
Suggests KLM know how important and successful the LBA route is and can't afford to damage it.
Are they beginning to realise the overall T3 inabilities re the contract

 

[SierraHotel]

All 3 rotations today scheduled to be operated by T3 metal. Watch this space.....

 

[pug]

Just an observation but since they’re struggling to crew.. A football charter will need 1 crew. A 3 x daily schedule needs 2 or 3.

The contract with KLM is for nearly a decade with options to extend. KLM have recently said they’re happy and working towards a long term partnership. I know in business people say one thing and do another, but I also know that Eastern have been under a LOT of pressure from KLM to take on additional bases and Eastern have said they can’t do it yet because they don’t have the resources. Whatever decisions are being made, whether that’s sending an aircraft on a charter instead or not, will have been discussed with KLM first. The idea that they sent it on a charter out of position and then told KLM at the 11th hour is naive.

KLM sub their own aircraft on all of the routes Eastern currently operate when Eastern are unable to operate it themselves, it doesn’t mean one route is valued over another. I couldn’t possibly comment on what KLM think, all I can go from is what people at Eastern who have been in contact with the people at KLM have told me..

Yes it’s chaos there, but they’re training lots of crew up and that’s difficult because it’s not like they can just attract a load of pilots ready to go, and it’s something KLM themselves are struggling with so at the moment any help they can get is a bonus.

There’s some on dried fruit that seemingly want Eastern to fail. I’m disappointed that it’s a sentiment that seems to be shared by a few people on here. Lots of U.K. based jobs are being created at this time, and people have to start somewhere.

 

[Finger66]

@pug whilst I get what you are saying, any business, whether it's T3 or not, should not be committing to something it can't fulfil. Hopefully the impending end to the football season may create some slack.

I too hope T3 do sort this mess out because it is clear that KLM needs them and we all need this regional connectivity to survive.

All that said, and whatever the reasons, the current situation risks causing irreparable damage so it's no surprise that this is causing frustration, anger and consternation with many on here and on other forums.

 

[752]

Well today is a new day and G-CLYU is on time / on its way from AMS. Lets hope for a smoother day today. According to FR24 Eastern are due to operate all 3 rotations today

 

[White Heather]

Just an observation but since they’re struggling to crew.. A football charter will need 1 crew. A 3 x daily schedule needs 2 or 3.

The contract with KLM is for nearly a decade with options to extend. KLM have recently said they’re happy and working towards a long term partnership. I know in business people say one thing and do another, but I also know that Eastern have been under a LOT of pressure from KLM to take on additional bases and Eastern have said they can’t do it yet because they don’t have the resources. Whatever decisions are being made, whether that’s sending an aircraft on a charter instead or not, will have been discussed with KLM first. The idea that they sent it on a charter out of position and then told KLM at the 11th hour is naive.

KLM sub their own aircraft on all of the routes Eastern currently operate when Eastern are unable to operate it themselves, it doesn’t mean one route is valued over another. I couldn’t possibly comment on what KLM think, all I can go from is what people at Eastern who have been in contact with the people at KLM have told me..

Yes it’s chaos there, but they’re training lots of crew up and that’s difficult because it’s not like they can just attract a load of pilots ready to go, and it’s something KLM themselves are struggling with so at the moment any help they can get is a bonus.

There’s some on dried fruit that seemingly want Eastern to fail. I’m disappointed that it’s a sentiment that seems to be shared by a few people on here. Lots of U.K. based jobs are being created at this time, and people have to start somewhere.

You're defence of Eastern is admirable, and I for one don't want any airline to fail. Enough have done already! But, it is probably about 9 months now since Eastern started advertising for crew to be based at LBA. If as you say, they're struggling to get them on board, and training is still ongoing, then clearly the addition of the LBA base from this week was a step too far, too soon.

If there weren't enough aircraft available to cover tech issues, nor enough crews to fly what they have, then the onus is on Eastern AND KLM to postpone any handover at LBA and for now at least, concentrate on the existing Eastern/KLM routes. Spreading too thinly what little they have to accommodate another airport is only going to cause disruption on a wider scale, and more to the point will not only harm KLM, but LBA too.

I have little doubt that given the chance, the LBA route would have supported a 737 operation, at least on some rotations, as at NCL, had KLM mainline taken it on, and offered reasonable prices. These days though it's a route in decline with less rotations on (frequently) smaller E170 equipment and therefore high fare costs. The usual situation seems to apply with LBA living in the shadow of MAN and not being given the attention it probably deserves given the size if it's catchment area.

 

[Jerry]

These days though it's a route in decline with less rotations on (frequently) smaller E170 equipment and therefore high fare costs. The usual situation seems to apply with LBA living in the shadow of MAN and not being given the attention it probably deserves given the size if it's catchment area.

The price difference between LBA and MAN is noticeable when I've been researching flights for a trip in October. It's often double to fly from LBA compared to MAN.

 

[LBAYORKIE]

Just an observation but since they’re struggling to crew.. A football charter will need 1 crew. A 3 x daily schedule needs 2 or 3.

The contract with KLM is for nearly a decade with options to extend. KLM have recently said they’re happy and working towards a long term partnership. I know in business people say one thing and do another, but I also know that Eastern have been under a LOT of pressure from KLM to take on additional bases and Eastern have said they can’t do it yet because they don’t have the resources. Whatever decisions are being made, whether that’s sending an aircraft on a charter instead or not, will have been discussed with KLM first. The idea that they sent it on a charter out of position and then told KLM at the 11th hour is naive.

KLM sub their own aircraft on all of the routes Eastern currently operate when Eastern are unable to operate it themselves, it doesn’t mean one route is valued over another. I couldn’t possibly comment on what KLM think, all I can go from is what people at Eastern who have been in contact with the people at KLM have told me..

Yes it’s chaos there, but they’re training lots of crew up and that’s difficult because it’s not like they can just attract a load of pilots ready to go, and it’s something KLM themselves are struggling with so at the moment any help they can get is a bonus.

There’s some on dried fruit that seemingly want Eastern to fail. I’m disappointed that it’s a sentiment that seems to be shared by a few people on here. Lots of U.K. based jobs are being created at this time, and people have to start somewhere.

Its reassuring to know KLM will 'fill in' when Eastern are unable to opetate a flight, but we have had cancellations over the last couple of days which is concerning.

 

[pug]

You're defence of Eastern is admirable, and I for one don't want any airline to fail. Enough have done already! But, it is probably about 9 months now since Eastern started advertising for crew to be based at LBA. If as you say, they're struggling to get them on board, and training is still ongoing, then clearly the addition of the LBA base from this week was a step too far, too soon.

If there weren't enough aircraft available to cover tech issues, nor enough crews to fly what they have, then the onus is on Eastern AND KLM to postpone any handover at LBA and for now at least, concentrate on the existing Eastern/KLM routes. Spreading too thinly what little they have to accommodate another airport is only going to cause disruption on a wider scale, and more to the point will not only harm KLM, but LBA too.

I have little doubt that given the chance, the LBA route would have supported a 737 operation had KLM mainline taken it on and offered reasonable prices. These days though it's a route in decline with less rotations on (frequently) smaller E170 equipment and therefore high fare costs. The usual situation seems to apply with LBA living in the shadow of MAN and not being given the attention it probably deserves given the size if it's catchment area.

9 months for crewing from 0 is nowhere near enough and I know that this has been communicated to KLM who will also be aware of the challenges. Typically a type rating takes around 6 weeks to 2 months, then there is the mandatory training that must be completed prior to line training which usually takes a couple of weeks at least. There aren’t enough sim instructors at the various providers and budding crew are being sent all over the place to complete the various ground school and sim training. Then there is line training which can again be a few months. But then you need the training capacity to do this, how many flights? How many trainers? There are not enough type rated Ejet pilots in the uk, if they were running a fleet of 737’s or A320’s it’d make the job a hell of a lot easier.

What’s happened is RL has said we’ll do it, told his staff it needed doing yesterday and oh by the way we’re opening a base at LBA so sort it now! What the commercial people at Eastern are doing is liaising with KLM to try to satisfy the contract (and the contract with other partners) and manage it so that they are in a position to take over the schedule in due course.

I’m not aware that the plan was to completely switch over to the full eastern cover from end of March, in fact I’m pretty certain that wasn’t the case and they’ve probably agreed with KLM that they’ll need a period of grace to get things up and running. It doesn’t help that people pretend on other forums to know that an aircraft that is away on a charter should have been running the KLM schedule because in all likelihood that isn’t the case.

Until such time that KLM publicly fall out with Eastern and take back their network or switch to another operator (or indeed start abandoning routes) then it’s all pointless conjecture and I have to be honest I’m getting the impression there’s people on here and elsewhere wanting it to fail but not seeing the bigger picture. If you want this route and others to be maintained then this has to work. There aren’t many alternatives.

@pug whilst I get what you are saying, any business, whether it's T3 or not, should not be committing to something it can't fulfil. Hopefully the impending end to the football season may create some slack.

I too hope T3 do sort this mess out because it is clear that KLM needs them and we all need this regional connectivity to survive.

All that said, and whatever the reasons, the current situation risks causing irreparable damage so it's no surprise that this is causing frustration, anger and consternation with many on here and on other forums.

That’s my point, they aren’t. They are under pressure to take on more work that they can’t possibly do and have communicated this to KLM. I too have my concerns about customer confidence but what is the alternative? I’m sure KLM would continue operating these routes if they could, but they can’t and the last thing we need is them to start abandoning the regions, particularly if these issues are only a temporary blip as has been evidenced by the fairly solid performance at HUY and MME with all things considered.

 

[Len Fish]

Being a small airline and having a jet fleet of only 4 ERJ 190s and 2 ERJ 170s there’s little or no flexibility when things go wrong. Yes, KLM can and do help out as we’ve seen but for how long will they be willing to do this if it becomes a regular occurrence or, more importantly for the paying passengers, if cancellations happen on a regular basis. Early days but Eastern will need to get their act together sooner rather than later for this arrangement to work reliably.

 

[Finger66]

Absolutely @Len Fish and I will say it again, it doesn't take long for damage done to become irreperable

 

[Starflyer]

What’s happened is RL has said we’ll do it, told his staff it needed doing yesterday and oh by the way we’re opening a base at LBA so sort it now!

That’s my point, they aren’t. They are under pressure to take on more work that they can’t possibly do and have communicated this to KLM.

So on the one hand, Eastern in the guise of RL have said to KLM "they'll do it" and on the other hand, Eastern in the form of its management team are saying "we can't possibly do this" and have told KLM as such. Doesn't that dysfunction perhaps strike you as the root cause of the issue? Eastern is RL, RL is Eastern. It surely does all come down to "Eastern" promising something that they can't deliver - your statement says as much!

I was talking to someone else in industry yesterday who has long experience of dealing with them. Their comment was that you have to be really good at being s**t to be as s**t as Eastern consistently manage to be. Their words, not mine.

 

[CM.]

The price difference between LBA and MAN is noticeable when I've been researching flights for a trip in October. It's often double to fly from LBA compared to MAN.

But then Manchester has more rotations with KLM and also has EasyJet on the route whereas LBA only has KLM.

 

[pug]

So on the one hand, Eastern in the guise of RL have said to KLM "they'll do it" and on the other hand, Eastern in the form of its management team are saying "we can't possibly do this" and have told KLM as such. Doesn't that dysfunction perhaps strike you as the root cause of the issue? Eastern is RL, RL is Eastern. It surely does all come down to "Eastern" promising something that they can't deliver - your statement says as much!

I was talking to someone else in industry yesterday who has long experience of dealing with them. Their comment was that you have to be really good at being s**t to be as s**t as Eastern consistently manage to be. Their words, not mine.

I’m not defending management (RL) decisions, but he’s given his team this to work with and like usual pulled the pin out and thrown the grenade and watched from the sidelines. This is not the way to do business and that’s where my concerns with eastern lay. It’s also why I’ve been hoping KLM buy a controlling stake in the business to resurrect KLM UK, it’s something I’ve been quite vocal about on here and elsewhere. The problems have stemmed from that management style and also from the period of being owned by a company in Texas where every decision had to be passed by them, not exactly efficient and I understand one of the causes of the fallout with LBA.

However, we can say what we like about RL but whether through desperation or not he has won the contract, even in spite of supposed bad blood with other flag carriers. What the staff at Eastern want to do is make it work because they see a future in it, that does include the commercial people there who are trying their hardest amidst the chaos to satisfy the contract and others ultimately to ensure they keep in a job!

They might have a reputation for being difficult to deal with, I’m well aware of this being in the industry myself and having had some dealings with them. However this has been said of them for many years and yet they continue to operate and win contracts. Crucially they continue to offer a way in to the industry where others don’t, and I am not going to apologise for wanting that to continue.

 

[Starflyer]

I understand one of the causes of the fallout with LBA.

The cause of the fall-out with LBA was not paying their bills and LBA taking action to impound a Jetstream 41 to get their money. That was quite a long time after the Texans had left the scene - three years later, I think.

 

[White Heather]

Given the situation then, seems like a great time for KLM Cityhopper to take on a new route to Exeter, using their own E190s exclusively. (Not!).

It's hard not to think that the LBA operation has been sacrificed to Eastern to free up the KLM Cityhopper aircraft for Exeter. I know that's over simplistic, but we keep hearing about shortages of aircraft, crews and slots at AMS. Yet they start up a new route putting themselves under greater pressure than ever! Meanwhile, an established route that's already undeserved, is somewhat messed up (temporarily or otherwise- we shall see). I hope to goodness that come the low vis days, Eastern can use Cat3 as KLM did.

 

[rmac]

Maybe the time for Loganair to announce LHR -LBA to start when the new extension opens later in the year. or even better BA to come back!

 

[pug]

The cause of the fall-out with LBA was not paying their bills and LBA taking action to impound a Jetstream 41 to get their money. That was quite a long time after the Texans had left the scene - three years later, I think.

I know why they did it, the company was managed to destruction under the ownership of Bristow and offloaded back to RL for relative pennies compared to what it was sold off for. Then Covid happened people stopped using regional air services favouring Microsoft teams or surface access to save money and cashflow went to pot hence being poor with credit and not paying their bills. Ironic really that Virgin did a similar thing to another local airport during the same period so, in spite of their reputation, it’s important to play devils advocate.

They get a lot of money for the KLM contract on a per sector basis. If RL manages to screw this up then that’s on him. My support is for the staff and what they want to make of it..