Right then Ray, the game is back on Part 2 but this time we need to try and find out what Ray is talking about.
Route Development & Rumours
- Thread starter Aviador
- Start date
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Right then Ray, the game is back on Part 2 but this time we need to try and find out what Ray is talking about.
Im gonna start off with saying Air Blue are returning to BHX but this time on the A321 from Islamabad ?
ronnoc1k8
Active Member
Oh never!
58terminus
Well-Known Member
Another short season of inbound charters?
User002
Member
I heard this morning (part 2) would be an add onto another European city then tonight I heard that it was just a couple of one off rotations. But the destination and airline would be great either way.
A couple of pertinent clarifications relating to exchanges on the previous page. This discussion moves so quickly!
The term LOW-COST CARRIER (LCC) refers to an operator's balance sheet from a business perspective. Low costs are achieved by strategies such as operating a single aircraft type, minimising staff numbers, employing staff from low-wage countries, registering business in low tax jurisdictions, charging customers for all 'add-ons', pursuing subsidies from airports and tourist boards. And many more cost-cutting strategies of this kind. But it's all about the business side of the operation. Low Cost does NOT imply that low fares are automatically passed on to customers at the point of sale. Though LCC's are understandably in no hurry to disabuse the travelling public of that common misconception! Some carriers, including Ryanair and Wizzair, are described within the industry as an ULTRA LOW-COST CARRIER (ULCC).
The term NO-FRILLS CARRIER best describes the customer-facing product. On a typical no-frills carrier customers will pay additional increments for checked baggage, card payments, booking fees, onboard catering, seat selection, entertainment etc. Only the basic flight is included in the upfront fare. And that upfront fare won't always be cheap.
Now for the bit which really confounds the public. Both Low-Cost Carriers and Full Service Carriers offer low fares. And both offer expensive fares too! All well-known carriers deploy sophisticated yield-management software to maximise revenue from fares. Whether you're flying Ryanair or KLM, you can confidently expect to be faced with an eyewateringly high fare if booking travel on a popular route in high season the day before you fly. Conversely, it is possible to secure a bargain fare on a Full Service Carrier under the right circumstances. Singapore Airlines MAN-IAH route is a notable example of this: one of the world's leading luxury airline brands offering very cheap fares to build up a fledgling route. But try booking a Ryanair ticket to a city where your local football team has just been drawn out for a Champions League away-tie on your travel date ... there will be nothing cheap about it. But you'll still get full service on the Singapore Airlines (cheap ticket) flight and no-frills on the (expensive ticket) Ryanair flight to the Champions League match venue.
Those are examples to explain the principle. But yield management software is always hard at work in airline booking engines. The airlines don't want to be left with empty seats, but they do want to maximise revenues on seats sold.
Remember: Low Cost Carrier describes an airline which pursues an aggressive strategy to maintain low costs on its balance sheet. No-Frills Carrier relates to the customer-facing type of service which passengers can expect when booking air travel. Neither represents any promise of a bargain-priced air ticket at point of sale.
At this point, we can easily define Singapore Airlines as a Full Service Carrier, EasyJet as a Low-Cost Carrier and Ryanair as an Ultra Low-Cost Carrier. The ULCC is simultaneously a No-Frills Carrier, as this describes the customer-facing product (not the company modus operandi with reference to the corporate balance sheet).
As for PRIMERA AIR, I am not yet sufficiently familiar with their long-haul proposition to identify which category they will fall into. I would speculate that they won't be aiming to emulate the premium full-service carrier model. But the Ryanair / Wizz Air ULCC model may be too draconian to work on long-haul routes. So perhaps they will end up closer to the Thomas Cook-style operation: a perfectly acceptable cabin product pitched at an attractive fare? ie. Both Low-Cost operations but not No-Frills. Don't read anything into the $99 fare publicity ... all carriers throw in afew loss-leaders to grab the headlines for initial promotional purposes. What will really matter is the mean price point which transpires long-term relative to the competing offers of their peers.
The term LOW-COST CARRIER (LCC) refers to an operator's balance sheet from a business perspective. Low costs are achieved by strategies such as operating a single aircraft type, minimising staff numbers, employing staff from low-wage countries, registering business in low tax jurisdictions, charging customers for all 'add-ons', pursuing subsidies from airports and tourist boards. And many more cost-cutting strategies of this kind. But it's all about the business side of the operation. Low Cost does NOT imply that low fares are automatically passed on to customers at the point of sale. Though LCC's are understandably in no hurry to disabuse the travelling public of that common misconception! Some carriers, including Ryanair and Wizzair, are described within the industry as an ULTRA LOW-COST CARRIER (ULCC).
The term NO-FRILLS CARRIER best describes the customer-facing product. On a typical no-frills carrier customers will pay additional increments for checked baggage, card payments, booking fees, onboard catering, seat selection, entertainment etc. Only the basic flight is included in the upfront fare. And that upfront fare won't always be cheap.
Now for the bit which really confounds the public. Both Low-Cost Carriers and Full Service Carriers offer low fares. And both offer expensive fares too! All well-known carriers deploy sophisticated yield-management software to maximise revenue from fares. Whether you're flying Ryanair or KLM, you can confidently expect to be faced with an eyewateringly high fare if booking travel on a popular route in high season the day before you fly. Conversely, it is possible to secure a bargain fare on a Full Service Carrier under the right circumstances. Singapore Airlines MAN-IAH route is a notable example of this: one of the world's leading luxury airline brands offering very cheap fares to build up a fledgling route. But try booking a Ryanair ticket to a city where your local football team has just been drawn out for a Champions League away-tie on your travel date ... there will be nothing cheap about it. But you'll still get full service on the Singapore Airlines (cheap ticket) flight and no-frills on the (expensive ticket) Ryanair flight to the Champions League match venue.
Those are examples to explain the principle. But yield management software is always hard at work in airline booking engines. The airlines don't want to be left with empty seats, but they do want to maximise revenues on seats sold.
Remember: Low Cost Carrier describes an airline which pursues an aggressive strategy to maintain low costs on its balance sheet. No-Frills Carrier relates to the customer-facing type of service which passengers can expect when booking air travel. Neither represents any promise of a bargain-priced air ticket at point of sale.
At this point, we can easily define Singapore Airlines as a Full Service Carrier, EasyJet as a Low-Cost Carrier and Ryanair as an Ultra Low-Cost Carrier. The ULCC is simultaneously a No-Frills Carrier, as this describes the customer-facing product (not the company modus operandi with reference to the corporate balance sheet).
As for PRIMERA AIR, I am not yet sufficiently familiar with their long-haul proposition to identify which category they will fall into. I would speculate that they won't be aiming to emulate the premium full-service carrier model. But the Ryanair / Wizz Air ULCC model may be too draconian to work on long-haul routes. So perhaps they will end up closer to the Thomas Cook-style operation: a perfectly acceptable cabin product pitched at an attractive fare? ie. Both Low-Cost operations but not No-Frills. Don't read anything into the $99 fare publicity ... all carriers throw in afew loss-leaders to grab the headlines for initial promotional purposes. What will really matter is the mean price point which transpires long-term relative to the competing offers of their peers.
Whatever the definition of Primera the average punter will not care of the flights are great value and no one will care of they grow and offer more direct destinations.
As for the route out east: I am going for hainan to bejing. Would rather see Singapore or Japan. Would be more excited by that.
As for the route out east: I am going for hainan to bejing. Would rather see Singapore or Japan. Would be more excited by that.
Creguk
Active Member
Beijing, Honk Kong or imagine Tokyo! Am I being too hopeful?
Aceshigh
Well-Known Member
- Nov 24, 2015
- 782
- 63
For BHXs sake I hope Primera works !
But If I was a BHX avgeek (which I'm not )
I would be seriously underwhelmed.
Primera will need millions in branding to get their name out there.
An unknown Scandinavian carrier flying routes at odd times on an ad hoc basis that a well known legacy carrive couldn't make work just seems an odd proposition to get that excited about ?
But If I was a BHX avgeek (which I'm not )
I would be seriously underwhelmed.
Primera will need millions in branding to get their name out there.
An unknown Scandinavian carrier flying routes at odd times on an ad hoc basis that a well known legacy carrive couldn't make work just seems an odd proposition to get that excited about ?
GliderPilot
Well-Known Member
Clearly someone from a MAN forum on here^^^ 
If you dont believe it will work it wont... should be getting behind primera air!
If you dont believe it will work it wont... should be getting behind primera air!
rollo
Elite-Member
- Aug 26, 2014
- 2,623
- 233
You make some points and obviously it's a bit of a gamble personally I would have preferred BA opening a hub with 787's
but back on earth we have an unknown airline with a pretty neutral name who seem to be offering a decent product.
I totally agree about the marketing effort required to reach the public awareness.
Aviation is littered with brave failures think back to Laker/People Express but then again look at Ryanair. Easyjet and Norwegian or even TCX at MAN to see what can happen the odds are stacked against them but given a fair wind you never know.
but back on earth we have an unknown airline with a pretty neutral name who seem to be offering a decent product.
I totally agree about the marketing effort required to reach the public awareness.
Aviation is littered with brave failures think back to Laker/People Express but then again look at Ryanair. Easyjet and Norwegian or even TCX at MAN to see what can happen the odds are stacked against them but given a fair wind you never know.
I think the only problem with Primera is that they are not 100% BHX focussed. Starting 2 other bases at the same time means their attention will be split. Should one base perform significantly better than the others this will get the future growth whereas had they launched solely here we'd have their full commitment.
People who cite the failiure of AA,UA and BA on transatlantic routes fail to grasp that the failiure is probably with the airline not the route. They arrogantly think they can retain the customers without providing a service.
People who cite the failiure of AA,UA and BA on transatlantic routes fail to grasp that the failiure is probably with the airline not the route. They arrogantly think they can retain the customers without providing a service.
Aceshigh
Well-Known Member
- Nov 24, 2015
- 782
- 63
By way of balance Hainan was relatively unknown in Manchester. They had great PR roadshows etc it's now daily with 90% load factors from a standing start.
It can be done. Just not sure Primera will have deep enough pockets AND if another base does indeed perform better than another the swap out will be instant.
From the exuberance of the rumours I simply assumed it was Level or Norwegian!
Maybe my ignorance but I have never heard of this airline!
Plus it's not a MANCHESTER view, it's an observation many would make regardless of location!
It can be done. Just not sure Primera will have deep enough pockets AND if another base does indeed perform better than another the swap out will be instant.
From the exuberance of the rumours I simply assumed it was Level or Norwegian!
Maybe my ignorance but I have never heard of this airline!
Plus it's not a MANCHESTER view, it's an observation many would make regardless of location!
Last edited:
richard winterbourn
Active Member
- Aug 19, 2015
- 423
- 93
In terms of trans-Atlantic travel, TCX were relatively unknown a few years ago, Norwegian as a complete airline was unknown until relatively recently: conversely Continental/United were well known a few years ago but are now less so in the regions.
We are living in changed times, times in which air travel is expected to grow significantly and with this growth there will be opportunities for airlines who offer a good product - and this will include new airlines as well. It has yet to be seen how Primera Air will fare but i, for one, have faith enough to believe that as a good, solid Scandinavian country airline, they will be putting everything into forward planning to achieve success.
Underwhelmed!, overwhelmed! For me, its far too early to have doubts, fears or high expectations. We are still nigh on a year away from their first flight.... It would be better to start making judgements towards the end of the year - a lot may happen in the meantime.
We are living in changed times, times in which air travel is expected to grow significantly and with this growth there will be opportunities for airlines who offer a good product - and this will include new airlines as well. It has yet to be seen how Primera Air will fare but i, for one, have faith enough to believe that as a good, solid Scandinavian country airline, they will be putting everything into forward planning to achieve success.
Underwhelmed!, overwhelmed! For me, its far too early to have doubts, fears or high expectations. We are still nigh on a year away from their first flight.... It would be better to start making judgements towards the end of the year - a lot may happen in the meantime.
Last edited:
finchy168
Active Member
Westjet had a dreadful start out of LGW and recovered.
It can be done and would be great if Primera can make a go of it and cement a position out of BHX.
It can be done and would be great if Primera can make a go of it and cement a position out of BHX.
The unusual marketing challenge which Primera Air faces is that they are largely unknown at both ends of these transatlantic routes. The Brits don't know them, the Americans don't know them. This was not a problem for Thomas Cook ... they enjoy enormous brand-recognition (and customer-confidence) in the UK market and their primary objective is to attract British leisure travellers visiting the US. That others have taken to booking the service as well is a bonus for them. And in a way, a similar dynamic does apply to Hainan Airlines. The vast majority of customers on their MAN route are ethnic Chinese, and Hainan is a well-recognised brand amongst this demographic. They aren't unknown to their target market. Likewise, the Westjet brand is well-known in Canada.
One thing which has changed in the industry is that it is now less important for the brand name to be already known than it used to be. In the past, if you wanted to book a flight on a specific route you really needed to know the name of the airline and its brand. You needed to remember details of EasyJet, Monarch, Ryanair etc so you would visit the correct website. Those days are gone for good. Because as the public have learned, if you put "Flights from Birmingham to New York" into Google or a well-known specialist website such as Skyscanner, the internet will do all the hard work for you. Those flights will be highlighted in the search results even if you've never heard of the underlying brand.
There is still a role for brand-awareness marketing to play. Is this company any good? Can I trust their product? Are they safe? Will they go bust? But at least people can find out that they're flying the route easily enough. Most will then book if the deal offered meets their expectations ahead of competing options shown in the searches. So price and timings must be right.
One thing which has changed in the industry is that it is now less important for the brand name to be already known than it used to be. In the past, if you wanted to book a flight on a specific route you really needed to know the name of the airline and its brand. You needed to remember details of EasyJet, Monarch, Ryanair etc so you would visit the correct website. Those days are gone for good. Because as the public have learned, if you put "Flights from Birmingham to New York" into Google or a well-known specialist website such as Skyscanner, the internet will do all the hard work for you. Those flights will be highlighted in the search results even if you've never heard of the underlying brand.
There is still a role for brand-awareness marketing to play. Is this company any good? Can I trust their product? Are they safe? Will they go bust? But at least people can find out that they're flying the route easily enough. Most will then book if the deal offered meets their expectations ahead of competing options shown in the searches. So price and timings must be right.
- Moderator
- #3,897
The airport can help with that. When Rome was announced for CWL they did Roman themed advertising around the city centre and online, they had people dressed in togas and as Roman centurions in Cardiff City centre and they got a big pizza made up. It may be a help for Primera if BHX did something similar with a New York and Boston feel.
Going back to the Rumour number 2 (Eastbound) so the route that is being discussed that Ray cant get excited about, is this the "big" rumour we were talking about a few days ago or is this another one ?
davecleaver777
Active Member
- Feb 1, 2016
- 134
- 43
Maybe we might get Korean Air do a series of charters like the did at Glasgow
D
Deleted member 8862
Guest
Having been totally wide of the mark regarding the new US service operator, lets consider the east bound airline.
As i understand it this airline currently serves LHR but not MCR, and we are talking about the asian continent.
On that basis shouldn't be too difficult to compile a list of sorts, any offers.
As i understand it this airline currently serves LHR but not MCR, and we are talking about the asian continent.
On that basis shouldn't be too difficult to compile a list of sorts, any offers.
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Well it looks like I'm off to Australia and New Zealand next year! Booked with BA from Manchester via Heathrow with a stop in Singapore and returning with Air New Zealand and BA via LAX to Heathrow. Will circumnavigate the globe and be my first trans-Pacific flight. First long haul flight with BA as well and of course Air NZ.
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