Leeds Bradford - General Thread

[Finger66]

LBA management and marketing need to be all over the new WIzz announcement at DSA plus what’s going on at MME. We are going to get market share eroded from north and south unless something positive can be announced soon. I am going to sound like LBA4EVER now but DSA with a long flat runway with a newish terminal is attractive. Then the cheapest LCC expanding at MME. Come on LBA we need to fight the fight here

 

[scottrhino]

Agree with the marketing side of things finger66. LBIA aren’t the greatest for sure. In terms of announcements I’m guessing that there are things in the pipeline.

DSA has seen tough times during the pandemic (passenger wise) and it’s no surprise extra seats will be available at all airports in 2022. The industry will come back with a vengeance next year. What I would say about DSA is, although good facilities, it’ll be interesting to see how the customer experience will be when busy.

I’ll add that customers also want to choose different airlines for different results. Low cost gets you from A to B but jet 2/TUI are more package so again horses and courses.

MME has again been mentioned and yes they are pushing but if you can’t fill seats in 2022 there’s something wrong. But we all know why they are been attracted. LBIA is much maligned for its facilities but surely MME doesn’t offer much better!!

I just think we all ought to have some faith in the management. Yes it seems we’re been squeezed but seats are been made available due to the demand next year will bring, and I am sure we’ll have some news shortly.

 

[752]

Again on the back on things DSA doesn't have much better facilities either..

 

[LBA4EVER]

LBA management and marketing need to be all over the new WIzz announcement at DSA plus what’s going on at MME. We are going to get market share eroded from north and south unless something positive can be announced soon. I am going to sound like LBA4EVER now but DSA with a long flat runway with a newish terminal is attractive. Then the cheapest LCC expanding at MME. Come on LBA we need to fight the fight here

Im not trying to come across in any sort of negative way, im just telling all on here the facts, like you put it we need to fight the fight here, and hopefully when mr gove gets off the dance floor he might actually approve our terminal, the terminal is the sticking point, ok our runway aint the longest but for what airlines and modern aircraft types we are trying to attract it should not pose any issues.
Once we have the terminal im sure the airlines will be knocking at the door plus the other problem our bad stigma will finally go, in fact the airport might be looked at in a positive way esp as the terminal is a breem eco friendly designed one.
Ok going to hide in the corner now from ap1995 haha

 

[Sherburnflyer92]

We can worry all we want. But I am not worrying and never will. LBA and the Leeds City region is an attractive, wealthy, catchment area. LBA has some of wealthy places of the North within it's area. The airport serves, alongside Manchester, an economic power of the North. Leeds last time I checked was also the largest financial and legal centre outside of London. Yes you heard that correct - we are the largest financial and legal centre outside of London. You also look at the economy of Leeds. I suggest members do a quick Wikipedia to assure themselves everything is fine.

DSA - what has that got? Don't forget DSA can pull from EMA also and it's a little more attractive to go from somewhere south of Sheffield to DSA then it is, imo, to come from Bradford/Huddersfield etc.

What does MME offer? It's competition for NCL more than it is LBA. Yes I agree lower fares may attract them up North but then they get there to find an even worse set up in terminal and a really old fashioned set up. Not really all that attractive apart from Locals and others they can capture from the catchment area - small catchment area might I add. I wouldn't really fancy a trip on the A19/A1 to use that airport. It reminds me of airports you see in American west films. MME however is a lovely airport to fly into in terms of private flying.

@LBA4EVER - LBA suffers with ILS issues the CAT problem. You can only get CAT III on one end of the runway and not the other. That will always be the case unless something is done about the runway. Whilst technology on aircraft is improved ultimately it is still an issue. We also have issues with road infrastructure too and will continue to thanks to the WNTBNIMBY (We need this but not in my back yard). Sadly the terminal offers an improved customer experience with view to offer more passengers per year but not many.

 

[Coathanger16]

LBA suffers with ILS issues the CAT problem. You can only get CAT III on one end of the runway and not the other. That will always be the case unless something is done about the runway.

Generally the only time aircraft will land using CAT III will be in very poor visibility, i.e. fog.

Under those conditions, wind tends to be light to non-existent, and therefore it doesn't matter which runway aircraft land on.

 

[White Heather]

Generally the only time aircraft will land using CAT III will be in very poor visibility, i.e. fog.

Under those conditions, wind tends to be light to non-existent, and therefore it doesn't matter which runway aircraft land on.

Not strictly true at LBA. Contrary to popular belief, LBA doesn't suffer from fog very often, being in high ground, but when it does, what you say is correct.

However, LBAs ' fog' is, more often than not, low cloud, affecting the airport badly due to its height above sea level. This form of low visibility is often accompanied by wind too, and rain, and more often than not, the wind in such conditions is from the South East, meaning a runway 14 landing, with nothing more than Cat1 and a higher decision height.

All that said, LBAs diversion rate is actually low, less than 1% of arrivals, and nothing like as bad as the 'LBA is a tin pot airport on a hill with most flights diverted' brigade, who preach such nonsense as cover fir their blatant NIMBYism

 

[TheLocalYokel]

Not strictly true at LBA. Contrary to popular belief, LBA doesn't suffer from fog very often, being in high ground, but when it does, what you say is correct.

However, LBAs ' fog' is, more often than not, low cloud, affecting the airport badly due to its height above sea level. This form of low visibility is often accompanied by wind too, and rain, and more often than not, the wind in such conditions is from the South East, meaning a runway 14 landing, with nothing more than Cat1 and a higher decision height.

All that said, LBAs diversion rate is actually low, less than 1% of arrivals, and nothing like as bad as the 'LBA is a tin pot airport on a hill with most flights diverted' brigade, who preach such nonsense as cover fir their blatant NIMBYism

When the CAA used to publish monthly and annual airport diversion tables I looked at the worst and best in terms of numbers one year. Of the regional airports LBA and BRS stood out having many more diversions than others - these two airports have many other similarities apart from being the highest airports in the UK, both above 600 feet AMSL. The assumption was that most diversions were weather-related but the reason for a diversion was never included in the CAA tables.

I then compared the number of diversions that year at LBA and BRS with other regional airports that suffered fewer diversions. Most were less busy and I found that as a percentage of air transport movements there was little to choose between the diversions there and those at LBA/BRS. That said, LBA and BRS do seem to suffer more with the low cloud type of weather but there can be days when BRS and presumably LBA stand above the fog lying at lower levels. I've known such days when aircraft are diverted into BRS because surrounding airports have been fog-bound. I suspect the same thing can happen at LBA.

BRS, like LBA, has Cat3 on only one runway - the reciprocal is prevented by the topography on approach.

White Heather's comment about 'a tinpot airport on a hill with most flights diverted' resonates with BRS. The local rag, one of Reach Plc's numerous regional comics, sets its apprentice hacks surfing the net for 'stories'. On the days when flights are diverted from BRS they run a story - at least in their digital editions - highlighting the problems.

A week or two ago they did this when just two of nearly 70 arrivals were diverted. This leads to remarks in the comments section of the comic about a tinpot airport, usually referred to as Trumpton Airport. Inevitably, a tone is set that others with little interest in aviation read and believe, and so on.

BRS, and from what White Heather says the same applies with LBA, is nowhere near as bad as its reputation when it comes to diversions. I've used that airport hundreds of times in the past 40 years and more and been diverted once. That was in the 1980s.

 

[LBA4EVER]

Generally the only time aircraft will land using CAT III will be in very poor visibility, i.e. fog.

Under those conditions, wind tends to be light to non-existent, and therefore it doesn't matter which runway aircraft land on.

When colder conditions fog tends to drop to lower ground and the wind is pretty non existent, but what LBA suffers with due to been high up is low viability through actually been sat in the cloud many times so you can actually get some wind or breeze im afraid

 

[Coathanger16]

Valid points regarding LBA high altitude and therefore being affected by cloud as well.

The other thing to consider about CAT III is that the aircraft is required to perform an autoland i.e. the autopilot lands the aircraft, whereas the norm after a CAT I approach is for the pilot to land.

Depending how windy it is, even with a CAT III approach an aircraft may not be able to land as the autopilot has head/cross/tailwind limits for landing. For instance the A320 has a 20kts crosswind limit for autoland.

 

[Sherburnflyer92]

Generally the only time aircraft will land using CAT III will be in very poor visibility, i.e. fog.

Under those conditions, wind tends to be light to non-existent, and therefore it doesn't matter which runway aircraft land on.

Really isn't that easy to say "doesn't matter which runway" they land on. Maybe so at Heathrow or Manchester.

For more regionalised airports it's a lot more complicated for reasons both @White Heather and @TheLocalYokel have alluded to. CAT 3 on one end of the runway, CAT 1 on the other. Coupled both BRS and LBA are like each other with topography. Then at LBA, unsure of BRS, there is the displaced threshold at LBA which therefore means the "autopilot" floats some aircraft (757 floats on full auto land on Runway 32) which therefore then limits the actual type of CAT approach they can take. I would imagine the same is said for the A321. Hence why, particularly in dense fog, you'd get a few Jet2 and Ryanair 737 land on Runway 32 into LBA. But the 757's of Jet2 went over the hill to Manchester.

There are other things to complicate matters for regional airports - height of airport, other localised systems which that brings (Rain, Snow, Drizzle) all of which further deteriorate visibility.

When colder conditions fog tends to drop to lower ground and the wind is pretty non existent, but what LBA suffers with due to been high up is low viability through actually been sat in the cloud many times so you can actually get some wind or breeze im afraid

If the wind or breeze exists then the weather and therefore fog will not exist for so long as it will lift the fog. That is taught in Metrology courses for pilots.

 

[LBA4EVER]

Really isn't that easy to say "doesn't matter which runway" they land on. Maybe so at Heathrow or Manchester.

For more regionalised airports it's a lot more complicated for reasons both @White Heather and @TheLocalYokel have alluded to. CAT 3 on one end of the runway, CAT 1 on the other. Coupled both BRS and LBA are like each other with topography. Then at LBA, unsure of BRS, there is the displaced threshold at LBA which therefore means the "autopilot" floats some aircraft (757 floats on full auto land on Runway 32) which therefore then limits the actual type of CAT approach they can take. I would imagine the same is said for the A321. Hence why, particularly in dense fog, you'd get a few Jet2 and Ryanair 737 land on Runway 32 into LBA. But the 757's of Jet2 went over the hill to Manchester.

There are other things to complicate matters for regional airports - height of airport, other localised systems which that brings (Rain, Snow, Drizzle) all of which further deteriorate visibility.


If the wind or breeze exists then the weather and therefore fog will not exist for so long as it will lift the fog. That is taught in Metrology courses for pilots.

Many a time i have stood in cloud thats as thick as fog and they has been wind breeze and drizzle present. Im aware though there is a difference between cloud and fog, both grim though!

 

[Sherburnflyer92]

There are many different types of fog - Radiation fog is the one commonly found inland. Often we can get mixed up between Fog and Mist (there is a list of things that easily distinguish the both) with dew point and temperature meeting together to form fog. Not necessarily same temps but close enough.

To have fog you need wind of around 2 to 8knt. Anything above that turns it into low cloud.

 

[CM.]

Leeds/Bradford airport is 90 years old today!

Leeds Bradford Airport celebrates 90th birthday on Sunday with history exhibition planned

Leeds Bradford Airport (LBA) is celebrating its 90th Birthday on Sunday (October 17).

www.yorkshireeveningpost.co.uk

 

[Len Fish]

New terminal approval as a Birthday present from Mr. Gove?

 

[LBAYORKIE]

I believe there is an LBA 90th Birthday exhibition at Healds Aviation on Saturday. Sounds very interesting.

 

[White Heather]

According to an article in The Independent, a wing of Extinction Rebellion called Stay Grounded, who oppose airports and airport development, will be protesting at LBA tomorrow morning from 11am. They will also be targeting other airports including Manchester, Glasgow, Bristol, Doncaster Sheffield, London City, Gatwick, Liverpool and Southampton and any others with the faintest idea of expanding.

 

[LBA4EVER]

According to an article in The Independent, a wing of Extinction Rebellion called Stay Grounded, who oppose airports and airport development, will be protesting at LBA tomorrow morning from 11am. They will also be targeting other airports including Manchester, Glasgow, Bristol, Doncaster Sheffield, London City and any others with the faintest idea of expanding.

I think me and WH need to go sort out these nutcases, but then again we have a life, no time for these idiots Haha

 

[A400]

Why LBA? Not Teeside that seems to be getting lots recently. I dispear

 

[Bigman]

And no doubt they won't be walking, cycling or getting the bus to the airport either.