Leeds Bradford: General Airport Discussion & Updates

[Aviador]

we have been here before so i am certainly basing my intepretation on what has been written before.

in any case, to say it doesn't matter is rather silly. if LBA is top of the table for these kinds of things, people will be less inclined to choose to fly from that airport. this is not hard to understand. certainly saying "well we know the prices are the highest, we don't care, and if you don't like it don't buy it" is not worthy of any airport trying to grow - unless of course your aim is to be the ryanair of airports and enjoy being disliked.

I think you’re misunderstanding my point. It’s not about enjoying being disliked or not caring about the passenger experience, it’s about the inescapable reality of airport economics.

Leeds Bradford makes in the region of just £11 per passenger. An airport is a massive infrastructure asset that requires millions of pounds in constant investment, and that £11 margin simply doesn't cover it. If the bars cut the price of a pint down to £3, that lost commercial revenue doesn't just vanish into thin air. The airport has to claw it back from somewhere else to keep the lights on.

If it doesn't come from a pint, it will be added directly onto your parking charges, the cost of a coffee, the drop-off fee, or loaded onto the airlines' landing fees, which ultimately pushes up the price of your flight ticket.

When you look across the UK, airports that boast cheaper bar prices are usually either successfully rinsing passengers on other hidden fees, or they are charging their base operators much higher aeronautical fees, which means the consumer pays for it in their fare anyway. The cash has to be generated somewhere on the estate to fund the growth most of us want to see, it's simply a case of which bucket the airport decides to take it from.

 

[Cookridge resident]

It was £8.27 for a pint of Guinness this morning, and that was only achieved after navigating around four blue buckets which were dotted around between the old departure lounges and the new one. These were, of course, there to catch the leaks coming through the roof.
If you charge a premium for a service (or pint) it’s not unfair for people to expect a reasonable experience.
I understand people will now queue up to mitigate that experience, but perhaps point a finger towards the airport and their contractors to ask why the roof is leaking would be a reasonable response rather than shooting the wet messengers.
Security clearance was a breeze and the staff were delightful. I genuinely mean that as well.

 

[pug]

Maybe controversial, but my own view is that anyone posting a response from AI should show their prompt and the model used. A properly crafted prompt in the most sophisticated version paid for version of Claude is going to give you a different (and probably better) response than the basic version of Gemini or Chat GPT. And the prompt is important because unless you give it the right context, instructions, inputs etc they produce all sorts of guff; phrases like ‘a full regional hub’ for example. And the prompter can of course skew it with their own biases and opinions (see the use of AI to argue for and against DSA - some real AI slop there)

As an example

A rubbish prompt like “Explain why LBA should extend it’s runway’ will generate a different response to a better prompt

‘Act as a investment advisor to AENA.
Research the financial performance of UK regional airports, the CAA’s aerodrome licensing regulations, international passenger traffic flows in the UK and consider the economic benefits of whether LBA should expand its runway.
Be objective and consider all sides of the argument. Consider the financial and strategic aspects of the decision in the context of AENA’s investment portfolio
If your recommendation is not to extend, consider how AENA should prioritise investment in the airport”

Whilst I agree that it’s important to outline what was entered into AI to prompt a response, for want of a better word it’s the only scientific way to do it, to call things you personally don’t agree with as ‘AI slop’ is a bit rich in my view.

Sometimes to counter AI or hold it to account you simply have to feed what it’s said back to it and call it out. See the case of a certain car mechanic for example.

I’d agree that systems like Claude are the gold standard (where there to be one) in AI analytics. But my company use a free service and do so with quite a lot of trust in the system. They simply wouldn’t do this if all it returned was ‘slop’.

But ultimately I do tend to agree, whenever someone is positing an AI write up then it’s important for them to also post, verbatim, what they asked of it.

 

[Finger66]

DSA is suffering with AI
Absolute Ignorance in their case.
I don't touch AI with barge pole. Call me old fashioned but I still have 100% confidence in my own brain thank you very muchly

 

[White Heather]

yes, were they not there LBA i am sure would also be top of the list for highest parking charges too.

at the end of the day monopolies are never good for the consumer so i am quite happy there is competition which is both cheaper and has better customer service. you almost frame it as treasonous that anyone dare spend money with an alternative car park rather than giving it to LBA.

again, none of what you say is unique to LBA, other airports have costs to operate etc etc. why is LBA apparently running a high cost model which then gets passed on to the airport retailers and the customer to the extent that the prices at LBA are worse than other airports?

Karfa

You accuse me of framing it as almost treasonous that people should use other car parks. I did no such thing. I stated a fact. You tell me where, exactly, I suggested people should not use the competing car park companies. I didn't and in fact I often recommend Sentinel to friends.

It seems to me Karfa that you look for any opportunity to suggest that I am entirely pro LBA, now resorting to claiming my post says something it absolutely does not and then justifying it by some vague reference to my past record. This isn't the first time either. What I post is based entirely on what airport management have reported to the ACC over the years. Frankly, it isn't worth the hassle.

Thank you HX3 for recognising that I did not say what Karfa accuses me of and actually saying so. I appreciate it.

 

[HX3]

@KARFA this forum is a place for debate, and not to be personal. Your post is very direct to White Heather, comments like the problem is in your mind is absolutely not appropriate, it’s disrespectful, unnecessary and extremely rude.
We can all disagree, but there are ways and means of doing so.

 

[LsS27]

Quite frankly Karfa if you disagree with what WH reports to us as to what is said at the LBS meetings,look it up yourself on the LBA site where the minutes are published

 

[Finger66]

@KARFA please stop this. You are right you are entitled to an opinion, as we all are, but I also agree your posts are getting personal

 

[Len Fish]

And returning to the price of a pint, I doubt very much that is a determining factor in deciding which airport to fly from.

 

[Aviador]

Forums4airports is a board for regional aviation, airport infrastructure, and operational debate. We welcome robust disagreement regarding airport policies and commercial strategies, but members must debate the topic, not the individual. Let's return the focus strictly to LBA's passenger charges and economics.

Forums4airports
Moderator Team

 

[Speedbird1]

Well after all that there was a small point made that actually seems wasn’t picked up on. As @Aviador mentions SSP run the majority of units at LBA serving food and drinks. They also operate many of those across other UK airports. So what causes the difference in pricing between a pint at LBA vs. BRS for example? It has surely to be that SSP have a higher cost base at Leeds, which in turn must be due mainly by the rent paid on units?

Been a negative few weeks for LBA, with a fair bit of negative press coverage around things like this, the tractor causing diverts and the likes of Sun Express suspending for summer. Let’s hope the next few weeks are much more positive with good news on the horizon!

 

[Aviador]

Well after all that there was a small point made that actually seems wasn’t picked up on. As @Aviador mentions SSP run the majority of units at LBA serving food and drinks. They also operate many of those across other UK airports. So what causes the difference in pricing between a pint at LBA vs. BRS for example? It has surely to be that SSP have a higher cost base at Leeds, which in turn must be due mainly by the rent paid on units?

Been a negative few weeks for LBA, with a fair bit of negative press coverage around things like this, the tractor causing diverts and the likes of Sun Express suspending for summer. Let’s hope the next few weeks are much more positive with good news on the horizon!

Because SSP operates the vast majority of units across multiple UK airports, they have massive, centralised purchasing power. A keg of lager costs SSP the same to buy whether it's being rolled into Bristol or Leeds. Therefore, the retail price variance we see with LBA recently hitting the headlines in the Telegraph & Argus for an average pint price of £7.89 comes down to the local overheads on the ground at LBA.

Rent will be a huge factor bare in mind the winter months are considerably quieter than the summer months. Airports don't just charge flat rent, they usually take a heavy percentage of turnover. If LBA’s concession agreement demands a higher slice of the pie to make up for lower aeronautical fees from the aitlines, SSP will have to adjust its margins on the price per glass to maintain their target profitability. There's also the physical layout to consider: BRS has a much larger, modern, consolidated commercial footprint, a terminal built fit for purpose. At LBA, retrofitting and servicing units within a highly constrained, older terminal structure increases localised operational and logistics costs for the vendor.

The wider point you make about the recent run of bad press is completely spot on. Between the recent baggage tractor breakdown blocking the taxiway and causing diversions, SunExpress temporarily cutting back their summer capacity due to fleet/fuel optimisations, and the pint price index hitting the local news, it has felt like a bit of a perfect storm for the airport PR team. It’s a classic reflection of an infrastructure asset operating at absolute capacity while trying to execute long-term regeneration. Let’s absolutely hope the coming weeks bring a shift in momentum with some positive route announcements or visible progress on the terminal development to get the focus back on growth!

 

[752]

Just to add my two cents.. everytime I’ve passed through the airport the bars have been rammed so the prices are not putting people off buying. I try my best to buy from the duty free / f&b offering and using LBA car parks direct to support the airport bottom line. I’m not suggesting in anyway everyone should do that but I don’t spend a fortune, but definitely a lot more then the average !

 

[HX3]

Even using sentinel feeds into the airport as they change them to pick up/drop off. Another consideration is that the airport doesn’t have enough land to provide their own parking for all their customers, without developing multi story parking somewhere on site. So having the likes of Sentinel is useful to the airport.

On a separate note, is the screening zone the next part of the development to come on line in September, or is there something before that?

 

[Aviador]

On a separate note, is the screening zone the next part of the development to come on line in September, or is there something before that?

I've answered this in the REGEN thread.

 

[Speedbird1]

Because SSP operates the vast majority of units across multiple UK airports, they have massive, centralised purchasing power. A keg of lager costs SSP the same to buy whether it's being rolled into Bristol or Leeds. Therefore, the retail price variance we see with LBA recently hitting the headlines in the Telegraph & Argus for an average pint price of £7.89 comes down to the local overheads on the ground at LBA.

Rent will be a huge factor bare in mind the winter months are considerably quieter than the summer months. Airports don't just charge flat rent, they usually take a heavy percentage of turnover. If LBA’s concession agreement demands a higher slice of the pie to make up for lower aeronautical fees from the aitlines, SSP will have to adjust its margins on the price per glass to maintain their target profitability. There's also the physical layout to consider: BRS has a much larger, modern, consolidated commercial footprint, a terminal built fit for purpose. At LBA, retrofitting and servicing units within a highly constrained, older terminal structure increases localised operational and logistics costs for the vendor.

The wider point you make about the recent run of bad press is completely spot on. Between the recent baggage tractor breakdown blocking the taxiway and causing diversions, SunExpress temporarily cutting back their summer capacity due to fleet/fuel optimisations, and the pint price index hitting the local news, it has felt like a bit of a perfect storm for the airport PR team. It’s a classic reflection of an infrastructure asset operating at absolute capacity while trying to execute long-term regeneration. Let’s absolutely hope the coming weeks bring a shift in momentum with some positive route announcements or visible progress on the terminal development to get the focus back on growth!

To be honest, I think one of the issues is the fact that SSP have such a monopoly across UK airports. MAN T2 has done a great job in diversifying and getting local brands in too. All I see from airports with SSP is high prices and poor quality food. Offering a local craft beer and some decent food at the prices SSP do maybe a bit more palatable to people.

I wouldn’t expect any good news on the horizon for Winter as with the current climate all I can see is airlines cutting stuff rather than growing. Fingers crossed for positive news on the new CSZ as I’ve seen a lot of posts on social media with queues back out the doors and outside towards the new extension. Not a good look at all and something that really will put passengers off.

 

[Snackbar]

Well after all that there was a small point made that actually seems wasn’t picked up on. As @Aviador mentions SSP run the majority of units at LBA serving food and drinks. They also operate many of those across other UK airports. So what causes the difference in pricing between a pint at LBA vs. BRS for example? It has surely to be that SSP have a higher cost base at Leeds, which in turn must be due mainly by the rent paid on units?

Been a negative few weeks for LBA, with a fair bit of negative press coverage around things like this, the tractor causing diverts and the likes of Sun Express suspending for summer. Let’s hope the next few weeks are much more positive with good news on the horizon!

The fact is that there are a number of airport which charge the same as LBA for drinks - Newcastle, Cardiff both charge the same as LBA….

 

[Sherburnflyer92]

To be honest, I think one of the issues is the fact that SSP have such a monopoly across UK airports. MAN T2 has done a great job in diversifying and getting local brands in too. All I see from airports with SSP is high prices and poor quality food.

This is the trouble with the UK in general. For airports they've outsourced catering to one or two key contractors. Those are the "middle men" who operate on behalf to the brands on their "own in house brand" (which is usually sh*t anyway) and unfortunately the only people that loose out is the consumer.

It's a win-win for the airport. It's one contract that is negotiated at the end of the contract period. It's a loose loose for consumer as they are limited on the facilities provided - "brands" as such.

What needs to happen is the break up of these sorts of businesses and a return to more authentic catering / smaller contractors. Local bars, restaurants etc.
It however requires investment in terms of man hours re: contracts etc.
It's easier one company to deal with all the employees then have 3 different companies with 3 different sets of employees.

MAN will always have better catering facilities because of the size of the terminal. San Carlo for example would probably not operate under SSP and if it does shame on that brand for doing so.

 

[ChrisBBB]

Airports are the same as other environments where you have a captive audience with no competitions

Football grounds, gigs, service stations, all charge extortionate prices
It’s not just airports, let alone just Leeds Bradford airport

As has been pointed out - if you fancy that pre flight pint (one of the best pints going, along with the first one after you’ve got ready for your evening out on holiday), you’re not going to give it a miss because it’s £3 more than Spoons or 50p more than Manchester Airport