Leeds Bradford - General Thread

[lbaspotter]

Did you not see the prime time LBIA television advertisement last week in association with Monarch Airlines?

No I didn’t see it myself but I did hear about, me old man saw it I think on Wednesday night after or in between Emmerdale add break.

I understand that it was only broadcasted in the Yorkshire ITV region so not on national ITV or wider catchment region. I actually thought the airport might have posted on the said advert on there facebook page but nothing was said or even mentioned about it by them last week. I’ve tried searching for the ad on both Google and YouTube but to no avail.

 

[channex 757]

Did you not see the prime time LBIA television advertisement last week in association with Monarch Airlines?

I understand that it was only broadcasted in the Yorkshire ITV region so not on national ITV or wider catchment region. I actually thought the airport might have posted on the facebook page but nothing was said or even mentioned about it by them I’ve tried searching for it on both Google and YouTube but to no avail.

There is no point in advertising on national ITV because if someone saw it down in the South East, they aren't going to travel on the way up to LBA to fly are they! The vast majority of LBA passengers are from Yorkshire and approximatley 4 mppa travel from Yorkshire to Manchester. Therefore advertising on Yorkshire ITV is perfect.

Monarch have an advert on the homepage of the LBA website also.

 

[adam]

the billboards ive seen are 56 miles to New York via Man Airport so not really directly drawing passengers away from LBA by destination offered but will still be advertising the airport

 

[Tarn Spotter]

So no danger to Leeds trans atlantic routes then. Jet2 christmas to N Y always seem to be full.

 

[Jordan-34092]

Seen alot of these around Bradford. It seems that first have done away with Jet2's & Ryanair advertisements on the side of the buses to replace most with these. Think the airport need to hit back.

 

[adam]

may influence passenger who maybe would have gone on BA via Heathrow.

Also on the same point TPExpress trains are advertising on various Yorkshire radio stations promoting cheap advanced fares to Man Air the one i heard was York to Man Air for £X one way

 

[User0001]

LBIA Snowclosed Sun 24/3

Todays snowclosure raises a number of questions about operations at the airport. It just seems to me that some of the decision making of the managers and even air traffic controllers at the airport needs to be scrutinized?

Firstly the weather has been horrendous and the Easterly strong wind has made operations very difficult. The snow actually stopped falling on Saturday, early afternoon. From first light on sunday the wind was strong and did increase during the morning and snow was drifting. My question is why was there not continuous and continual runway sweeping blowing and de-icing right from the off? Why for the two hour period between the KLM embraer's arrival and the Easyjet's planned arrival was there not any ATC scrutiny of the runway state? Why has taxiway Delta not been cleared? Are we just playing at being an International airport?

The weather has been exceptional but it just just seems that decisions are always REACTIVE instead of PROACTIVE. I have also noticed this when we are either in LVPs or about to go into LVPs. Poor, slow and inexperienced decision making often leads to aircraft (needlessly) diverting. Is it a case that 'old school' ATCs have moved on taking their airfield knowledge with them?

Every possible hand should have been used to clean that runway today. There is absolutely no point in having people doing other jobs in the airport if the planes are not able to land. If ever a day served to back up lbia's recent posts about managerial decision making then today was it. We will very shortly be surging through the 3 million PAX point and yet in some ways the airport seems to me to be operated less efficiently as it was in the 80s.

I would like to say this is absolutely not aimed at those people who have worked tirelessly in bitter conditions actually at the 'coal face' but at the managers whose decisions have possibly led to many based aircraft having to divert today? I am genuinely interested in others opinions on today as I found it embarrassing.

 

[eastcoaster]

LUFC Pete your post regarding the LBIA snow closed Sun 24/3 raises a few more interesting questions. I'm assuming you are employed in some airfield managerial role maybe at another airport and feel that LBIA is not performing up to what you expect.
Your first remark

Firstly the weather has been horrendous and the Easterly strong wind has made operations very difficult.

Can't argue with that, it's not easy to battle against the forces of nature.

From first light on sunday the wind was strong and did increase during the morning and snow was drifting.

It increased significantly and erratically blowing fallen snow off the grass onto the runway, not all the time but some of the time. Have you ever seen a snow drift build and move? I have and from the centre of the airfield. They don't always build slowly at a milliimetre or two an hour. In a winds that strong they build up and move before your eyes!

My question is why was there not continuous and continual runway sweeping blowing and de-icing right from the off?

Err... then the airport would have been snow closed for the day and not just the two hours!

Why for the two hour period between the KLM embraer's arrival and the Easyjet's planned arrival was there not any ATC scrutiny of the runway state?

I think you will find there was as it is legal requirement, and this proves that during that period it was not necessary to do any ploughing.

Why has taxiway Delta not been cleared? Are we just playing at being an International airport?

The airport has a snow plan and prioritises the areas it clears first. The runway being first, a clear taxy route to it, and the the other route they use is deemed the best option operationally and has been since the 1980s when I started there, and the apron of course.

The weather has been exceptional but it just just seems that decisions are always REACTIVE instead of PROACTIVE.

You said it. The weather has been exceptional, but clearing snow is always REACTIVE. How on earth can you clear snow before it settles? It is impossible to start removing snow from the grass where it is now blowing from. De- ice fluid only works on a runway surface before solid ice forms and you are not allowed to grit a runway now due to the damage caused by it getting sucked into the engines.

I have also noticed this when we are either in LVPs or about to go into LVPs. Poor, slow and inexperienced decision making often leads to aircraft (needlessly) diverting. Is it a case that 'old school' ATCs have moved on taking their airfield knowledge with them?

You move into LVPS in a set procedure that secures and protects the airfield for autoland operation, delays occur as aircraft, ground vehicles, fire trucks, bird scarers, can not move around near to the CAT 3 runways, landing aircraft have to be further spaced to give them time to get off the runway and out of the critical area for the next aircraft to use the ILS. Diversions will occur because they can't take the visibility or they divert because they can't take the lengthy hold. Even airlines at Heathrow cancel 20 to 40% of flights because of this. Have you not seen that our Heathrow flight has suffered because of it and not just our weather?

Every possible hand should have been used to clean that runway today. There is absolutely no point in having people doing other jobs in the airport if the planes are not able to land. If ever a day served to back up lbia's recent posts about managerial decision making then today was it.

I think you will find every possible hand was working and people called in from days off. There is a limit to who can drive and clear runways so don't expect the staff from the bars, cafes, checkin, cleaners to be doing this.

We will very shortly be surging through the 3 million PAX point and yet in some ways the airport seems to me to be operated less efficiently as it was in the 80s.

I don't know how old you are, but believe me the airport has far better equipment now than it did then and I can remember the airfield being closed for days and on one occasion nearly a week in the 80s with similar amounts of snow.

I would like to say this is absolutely not aimed at those people who have worked tirelessly in bitter conditions actually at the 'coal face' but at the managers whose decisions have possibly led to many based aircraft having to divert today?

Well I think you hit the work force with a bullseye there as they carry out the day to day running of the airport from an action plan agreed annualy every year by the management and airport companies and operators.
The airport has done just fine this weekend and this winter coping with what has been thrown at it. It is not Munich or Geneva, Chicago or Moscow who invest in millions of pounds of equipment as this weather is more the rule and not the exception it is at LBIA. I certainly did'nt find yesterdays operation embarrassing, however I would certainly have felt very embarrassed if I had said what you did.

 

[SNOWMAN]

hi eastercoaster
a very good replay eastcoaster,its allways good to have these sort of posts answered by some one who knows what he is talking about.
regards
sm1

 

[a300boy]

LUFC-PETE normally produces good sensible posts. I believe he has let his spotters head run away with him on this occasion. I do know he supports Lbia , as do I , and together with him I find myself frustrated when aircraft divert and our reliability record is damaged. However as I have never swept a single snow flake from a runway and also never operated a low visibility regime of an Airfield I will leave it to the professionals.
We have just about got every possible operational and geographic problem possible to man here at our hill top airfield which in my opinion is why it will never be able to reach its catchment area potential, more is the pitty.

 

[jason1-11]

This weekend has been an absolute PR disaster for the Airport and one has to feel sorry for those poor passengers both here and abroad whose weekend breaks, business trips, missed connections, holidays and honeymoons etc have been ruined or got off to a less than salubrious start. I dread to think how much lost revenue and additional costs the airlines will have to absorb especially our new entrants: BA and Monarch. Surely this must put off potential business especially bearing in mind our number one competitor: Manchester had hardly any disruption of note.

The Airport staff appear to have done a wonderful job, but whilst aircraft can’t operate, LBIA it can’t be classed as an airport which is far too often in winter. It’s especially galling to see that in 2012 we had more diversions than Bristol, Manchester and on par with Gatwick . We don’t want the airport to get a “summer only reputation.”

This weekend should act as a reality check to the serious limitations and hope given time the Airport can address some of the operational issues. I sincerely hope we get an airport to be proud of.

 

[Sherburnflyer92]

The airport however suffers with massive phsycial disadvantages though. Its at the top of a 646ft (think) hill, and has litterally nothing around it (Unlike an airport with a valley surrounding it). This weekend the wind has being blowing in all sorts of directions but i would mostly say the majority of the time from the east. To the east of the airfield there is not only ONE but two hills with a road running inbetween. I hazard a guess (infact i know i was up at LBIA today, well uni and there is horrendous amounts of snow just moved. It came upto my hip your not telling me we had that much) the majority of the snow that the airport had to clear and move was not the snow that fell upon the airfield but the snow which came from the easterly direction due to the wind. Its okay to sit there and say this airport did abc and thats the reason its sh*t, or the fact it's being a PR disaster but until you know the local geography that surrounds the airport you don't really know the airport.
We are not the only ones by the way - East Midlands have probably suffered the same if not worse.

 

[User0001]

Thanks for the replies. I don't want to go into too much detail about the wind and drifting snow as my main issue is to do with the decision making processes and the actions of managers at the airport.

The attitude of 'we've got a snow clearing plan' and that's that is not the right one in my opinion. Plans should be fluid and proactive and after a day like Sunday when 1000s of passengers travel plans were disrupted retrospective questions do need to be asked and answered. Everyone makes mistakes including the most experienced ATController / Snowclearing manager but it is about how we react to those mistakes. Mostly they are not mistakes but just possibilities to make enhancements or improvements to the plan in place. It is about being fluid and alert. I don't think this happened on Sunday.

Yes you can be ready to clear snow before it has landed and yes you can do runway sweeps in between movements without having to close the whole airport. Was deicing of the runway done frequently enough or at the optimum time? There were missed opportunities to see what was happening on the runway before the Easyjet did the go around. The runway was not touched in over the time it took to fly from Geneva and yet as soon as it went into the hold snow clearing then began. Why was this? This is not a witch hunt but at the same time experience and lessons do need to be learned.

The fact that the snow clearing plan instructs to do 'just enough' is rather symptomatic of how the airport is run at the moment and will inevitably lead to not being properly prepared or ready to act. The terminal too is 'just enough' the aircraft stands are 'just enough' infact everything about the way the airport is run screams lets just do 'just enough'. This needs to change and fast before we start going backwards.

This attitude is backward and lazy and will be frowned upon by airlines and passengers alike. It is not the attitude of an international airport that wants to attract people to use it. LBIA simply cannot afford to be set in its ways as it strives to be the best in this region.

As for ATC decision making and RT communication allied to snow clearing on the said day I think it left a lot to be desired and every good humble ATController would I am sure look back to see if things were done as well as they could have been. Difficult conditions on Sunday but were all possible actions taken and were they taken a bit too late (like the rest of the airport)?

 

[a300boy]

In any walk of life things could always have been done better and decisions are made that later prove to be not the best. The Easyjet situation was a little strange as he was on short finals before he was told to go round. I have no idea when the snow blew back on the runway or when the last inspection had been done, only the people concerned could answer that. A similar situation arose when a Ryanair had to go around late on Sunday night when a vehicle was disabled on the runway at the last moment having had no aircraft movements for some time before. I do not know why that happened and the airport have no obligation to let us know why either.
Its there train set so they will sink or swim with the decisions they make. We will have to hope they want to see the operational side of the business become as efficient as the sales side has been recently.
I would think they appraise and review decisions and procedures they implement on a regular basis most good airlines do so airport should.
We all think we could do it better !! I should be the next Leeds United manager as I know all there is about football.

 

[Sherburnflyer92]

Looking at DEPS board for tommorow i have a few questions.

Why is there a 0800 LS flight to AGP with no return at all during the day?
Why is there a 0930 FR flight to AGP with again no return?

Where are these aircraft going to?
If it's wrong it's a bit shamefull of the airport to get something like this wrong. As an airport of it's size i'd expect at least the websites to be up to date and correct.

 

[lbaspotter]

Both Ryanair and Jet2 will operate flights to/from Malaga tomorrow. Looks like someone may have missed putting the flights on then airports flight display screens before going home this evening. Saying that LBA have been known to miss flight details before ....

Ryanair = FR2447 ETA 09:10 / FR2446 ETD 09:35
Jet2 = LS185 ETD 08:00 / LS186 ETA 15:05

Hope that helps.

 

[channex 757]

Looking at DEPS board for tommorow i have a few questions.

Why is there a 0800 LS flight to AGP with no return at all during the day?
Why is there a 0930 FR flight to AGP with again no return?

Where are these aircraft going to?
If it's wrong it's a bit shamefull of the airport to get something like this wrong. As an airport of it's size i'd expect at least the websites to be up to date and correct.

looking at flight stats, the ryanair is due in at 09:10 and the jet2 one at 15:00.

 

[News Guru]

[textarea]House price fears over Leeds Bradford Airport ‘danger zone’

Sixty properties around Leeds Bradford Airport are included in a new Public Safety Zone.

Residents fear house prices will suffer after they discovered they were earmarked as living in a danger zone near the airport.

The YEP can reveal 60 properties around Leeds Bradford Airport have been included in a new Public Safety Zone (PSZ).

The zone, which has been drawn up by the Civil Aviation Authority, identifies space at the end of runways that could be at risk in the event of an aircraft accident.

They also carry certain planning restrictions and aim to control the number of people on the ground who are at risk if a plane crashes on take-off or landing.

Full Story: http://www.yorkshireeveningpost.co.uk/n ... -1-5561001[/textarea]

 

[lbaspotter]

People cant really complain about this!, As this i suppose is what happens when you decide to live next to an airport which was already there before your house was built and even before you moved into live in the area.

 

[Aviador]

Interesting. I wonder if the airport will be obliged to offer to purchase the houses affected by the new CAA Public Safety Zone declaration.