Leeds Bradford - General Thread

[tleeds]

Any foreign airline is going to have a better chance of success by flying an unserved route rather than entering onto a route already served by 3 other carriers. That might have worked over the Pennines but as we have previously said LBA is not and never will be a MAN.

So assuming Extrajet is now a complete non-starter then SN have got to be a target for BRU.

AF on Paris would be great but suspect that's a no go at the risk of diluting KL and AMS. Also there is the "entering a route already served". Albeit poorly by LS.

Germany is a big untapped market with FRA and or MUC an ideal. What we need is a carrier with 50 seat regional jets, not 120 seat Airbus. Too many seats to fill.

If BZ had not gone bust back in 1990 then LBA would be even further ahead if they were still around.

As regards IAG, both BA and EI are doing well albeit a shame about the loss of ORK. Lack of frequency being the issue for the business traveller.

Any airline that enters a business route needs to provide frequency, hence my previous comment re a based commuter airline.

We all know the Loganair MD is an LBA fan and expect to see something not yet served, but as a probable extension of the GLA service.

Jet2 really shook things up at LBA and very much for the better. There are others want a piece of it now they have let someone else test the waters.

Onwards and upwards - that's the common goal we all want

Well a'board Finger (sorry no pun intended)!!!! Some very good points made by yourself!

Maybe we're all forgetting that whilst Vueling are having a lot of their own in house and internal difficulties they probably looked upon the actual demand and highly sustained offering from other operators for the BCN region route, as a reasoning for starting the route in the first place? From working with the airline closely it was used a lot more by Spanish clientele yes, but the fact that LS, ZB and FR all view the route as "viable" even though they're all in direct competition with each other, they probably wanted to compete too. BCN being one of VY's main hubs probably helped with the timetabling etc. which is probably a lot more difficult than the much wanted MAD route.

I don't necessarily think that an AF Paris route would dilute the KL AMS route either. You'd be surprised just how many people fly with BA to LHR and onwards to CDG, you really would!!! Both for Leisure and Business. Look at how NCL currently manage to have KL/AMS and CityJet/CDG , which is now going to be HOP! on behalf of AF to operate the CDG route. Again for high utilisation it would need some attractive business hours timetabling much like the T3 ABZ and SOU routes are from LBA at current. I agree on the BA night-stop! It's been rumoured from BA staff and airport staff that somethings in the pipeline but as always with rumours you just can't believe..

I truly believe that FlyBe could've generated something good at LBA...! They could be saviour if Eastern flop. Reinstate the SOU and EDI routes as well as EXT back..? Could be the start of something again? Really don't understand why the airport said no to FlyBe when they pitched the blueprint of the current DSA operations to LBA first...

In response to someone else's BMI Regional BRS post... Just look at how well they're doing down there!! Good on them too! Always liked that airline!

 

[Jerry]

I don't necessarily think that an AF Paris route would dilute the KL AMS route either.

AF CDG route if done with the correct timing would complement the KLM route. At CWL there is an 8 hour gap between the morning arrival and the evening arrival. Flybe moved CDG forward and with the AF codeshare it now substitutes as a 13.00 arrival instead of the missing KLM one. I believe Leeds only gets 3 KLM rotations a day?

 

[White Heather]

Well a'board Finger (sorry no pun intended)!!!! Some very good points made by yourself!

Maybe we're all forgetting that whilst Vueling are having a lot of their own in house and internal difficulties they probably looked upon the actual demand and highly sustained offering from other operators for the BCN region route, as a reasoning for starting the route in the first place? From working with the airline closely it was used a lot more by Spanish clientele yes, but the fact that LS, ZB and FR all view the route as "viable" even though they're all in direct competition with each other, they probably wanted to compete too. BCN being one of VY's main hubs probably helped with the timetabling etc. which is probably a lot more difficult than the much wanted MAD route.

I don't necessarily think that an AF Paris route would dilute the KL AMS route either. You'd be surprised just how many people fly with BA to LHR and onwards to CDG, you really would!!! Both for Leisure and Business. Look at how NCL currently manage to have KL/AMS and CityJet/CDG , which is now going to be HOP! on behalf of AF to operate the CDG route. Again for high utilisation it would need some attractive business hours timetabling much like the T3 ABZ and SOU routes are from LBA at current. I agree on the BA night-stop! It's been rumoured from BA staff and airport staff that somethings in the pipeline but as always with rumours you just can't believe..

I truly believe that FlyBe could've generated something good at LBA...! They could be saviour if Eastern flop. Reinstate the SOU and EDI routes as well as EXT back..? Could be the start of something again? Really don't understand why the airport said no to FlyBe when they pitched the blueprint of the current DSA operations to LBA first...

In response to someone else's BMI Regional BRS post... Just look at how well they're doing down there!! Good on them too! Always liked that airline!

Tom, what makes you think that LBA said no to Flybe? That is not my understanding of what happened - far from it in fact.

 

[lbaspotter]

Flybe with either Dash 8 or Embraer 170's would have been the best choice of airline to operate a mix of business routes out of LBA.

I also agree with "White Heather", From what I heard "tomleeds" LBA's management weren't best pleased with Flybe as they had a deal in place (op's were working out where to park the said 2+ aircraft) but at the very last minute Flybe pulled out of the said agreement and decided to go set up down the road.
DSA's owners Peel Group offered Flybe a deal that they couldn't refuse. Basically they are paying them to operate aircraft as part of Project Bluebird, be it with empty or full aircraft.

I also understand Church Fenton's owner was talking with Flybe at the time as well, Read elsewhere that he's even recently tried to poach Monarch Airlines away from LBA with a tempting deal.

 

[Finger66]

Well let's keep the optimism going and hope that KLM have cut back to 3 and using more E175's because they are freeing up capacity for AF to enter on CDG. Totally tongue in cheek comment of course! Does anyone know how long BE have free use of DSA for before they have to make the routes profitable or then finally decide it should have been LBA after all. Finger stop it now as this tongue in cheek is getting out of hand. Back to watching MVG v Jackpot on the Oche now!

 

[Finger66]

Today was time for some proper investigation. GDS showing KLM E175 on the night stopper from around about 18Jul with a couple of flights E175 op on some days. That's quite a cut back from 4 x E190s. BA probably laughing their socks off

 

[lbaspotter]

Today was time for some proper investigation. GDS showing KLM E175 on the night stopper from around about 18Jul with a couple of flights E175 op on some days. That's quite a cut back from 4 x E190s. BA probably laughing their socks off

KLM have scheduled to operate the smaller Embrear 175 on the daily KLM1551/1540 night stopper and Sunday morning KLM1541/1542 rotations during the summer school holidays period (July 9th - September 2nd 2017) as they tend to be less passengers travelling during that period...
All other KLM flights during summer 2017 (March 26th - October 28th remain scheduled to be operated by larger Embrear 190 aircraft.

It is worth noting other airlines eg, Jet2 & British Airways are known to swap aircraft around, Its called "supply & demand".

 

[a300boy]

So a lot less demand than this summer then ? Or were they flying the E190s half full.
I thought the passenger figures had been increasing nicely on this service for the last few years.

 

[David_itl]

You typically find that "business routes" are either reduced or capacity cut by some airlines in summer with a corresponding boost in "leisure" flying. Just got to see BA Cityflyer Express's plans this year

 

[Finger66]

Not all pax using LBA AMS will be business. And in fact the leisure market will be as is said high during July and August so no reason to substitute 190s for 175s in my eyes. But as a300boy said the other day we are all entitled to our opinion. The only reason there is a drop from 4 190s to 3 on a mix of 190s and 175s is that connex traffic is going elsewhere. And hence I refer to my earlier comment about BA laughing their socks off. KLM clearly not up for the fight!

 

[lbaspotter]

LBA-AMS figure's are quite hard to work whom's carrying what using the CAA provisional stats especially seen as we have 2x operators KLM & Jet2 on the route.

At its peak last summer 2016 the LBA-AMS route saw Jet2 operating up to 8x weekly Boeing 737-300's whilst KLM operated 21x Embraer 190's & 5x Fokker 70 rotations a week. This considerably dropped during July & August with Jet2 going down to 5x weekly Boeing 737-300's and KLM down to 21x weekly Embraer 190.

This summer 2017 see's Jet2 at its peak operating 8x weekly Boeing 737-300 rotations and along with KLM's 21x Embrear 190's. Again as did last year this will drop considerably during July & August with Jet2 operating 5x weekly Boeing 737-300's whilst KLM will operate 13x weekly Embrear 190 & 8x Embraer 175 rotations.

 

[Finger66]

I am fully aware of where the peaks and troughs exist in the Business Travel sector and don't blame Jet2 in any way for cutting back on AMS during the peak summer period. Their point to point traffic that they rely on will reduce and I am sure the aircraft could be, or is, utilised on a higher yield leisure sun route during that period. But all KLM seem to be doing after that promising period of frequency and aircraft capacity upgrade is cut back. They rely less on point to point traffic and more heavily on connecting traffic. Any business traffic reductions would be easily offset by the increase in leisure traffic and they would also pick up on extra point to point stuff from the Jet2 reduction during that period. There are two other plausible explanations in my eyes here. Firstly are they really committed to the route or are they operating it almost for the sake of it? Secondly BA seem to be going from strength to strength on LBA LHR and just perhaps they are slowly but surely eating away at KLMs connecting traffic? I have used both routes on a point to point and connecting basis and don't find much to choose between them. But if someone starts to steal your market share the usual thing to do would be to fight back unless the route was unprofitable which I doubt for one minute it is. But in the longer term I see we have a better chance of BA upgrading to 320s than KLM doing anything so perhaps I shouldn't be too critical of KLM handing market share over to BA.

As regards BA Cityflyer that is all about weekend aircraft utilisation and their entry into the leisure routes at other airports runs from late May to mid October. Far longer than the 6 week period we are referring to here on LBA AMS. Don't get me wrong I think it's a great move by BACF because we all know aircraft can only make money when they are flying. Perhaps Eastern may need to look at that element at LBA. IOM during the summer is crying out for some weekend flying and how much more perfect would the J41 be for that.

 

[jason1-11]

View media item 4567Capital Airlines Shorts 360, by Jason1-11,hosted on Forums4airports.com

I think we all wonder what LBA would look like today if our based airline Capital had servived to this day.

I personally think the airline would have the size and scale of Flybe and LBA would be much better connected to the near continent. Thoughts ?

 

[Finger66]

I totally agree with your comments. Back in 1990 they were already operating to AMS and BRU. The latter being a route we are sadly without. The airline itself was profitable, it was the parent company where all the losses were. As a former employee it was a great place to work and who knows where I would be if they were still alive. Sadly they are not but Jet2 have done wonders for LBA. It's time now that Flybe and Eastern got their finger out and connected us to Europe. Start ups have the right idea but finding funding is another thing altogether. The demand from LBA has always been there it just needs the commitment from airline(s)

 

[Tarn Spotter]

When I land at Schiphol airport, there seems to be wall to wall KLM aircraft on the ground, they must have plenty of tackle to do the LBA route and swap aircraft to meet any load.
Have to say now we have BA back at LBA never use Schiphol as a hub, going east its always LHR now.
Certainly Jet2 seems to have the capicity to easily swap their fleet, in the last two years have had a seat allocation refund as supposed to be a 757 and shrunk to a 737, benefitted the other way as well, always book seats in the first 8 rows.

 

[Finger66]

From a domestic flights point of view with Leeds sitting slap bang in the middle of the UK with very good train links the airport will always be up against it on point to point traffic to places like London and Edinburgh. Glasgow and Southampton will always work from LBA because the train journey is longer, more difficult and not always direct. We then have the currently unserved destinations that are also difficult by train from this area. Those main ones being CWL, BRS, EXT, NWI. However in order to make those attractive to the business traveller they need frequency of min two a day at business friendly times. Then you look at NOC, IOM, BFS, ORK that definitely can't be reached by train that would support the need for flights from LBA. It has been quoted elsewhere on this forum that EI would have done much better on ORK had the route been daily. A tue, thu and sat operation was no good to either the leisure or business market. So come on airlines, if you are going to fly a route then give it some commitment. Then we can move on to many destinations in Europe. We have nothing to Brussels at all, a Paris service that's impossible to do a day return and therefore less appealing to the business market. Major hubs in Germany like FRA and MUC although slots could be a problem. I think you can see where I am going with this. The big problem as I have stated before is 120+ seater a/c for these routes are too big which is why we need T3 and or BE to wake up and capture the market. I am about to post a bit of good news on the T3 thread separately but T3 have the perfect fleet now with Saabs and Embraers to give LBA a real go.

 

[a300boy]

I see that Robin Hoods passenger figures are growing with just under 1.3 million per year.
It is beginning to look like a real competitor these days !
What do you people think ?
It is only 12 years since it became a civilian airport so coupled with its cargo operations it must be doing pretty well.

 

[SNOWMAN]

how long did it take for LBA to get to 1.3 million,any ideas white heather.

 

[jason1-11]

how long did it take for LBA to get to 1.3 million,any ideas white heather.

Wiki is suggesting that in 1997 we served 1.25 million and 1998 1.406 million passengers.

 

[SNOWMAN]

jason 1-11
thanks for the info.
sm1