Route Development & Rumours

[IanFarquharson]

Hi there all, this debate about Birmingham Airport lost direct flight links to the USA, has been ongoing for many years, Birmingham airport may have a demand for it, but Birminghams issue all this time is down to costing purposes. What ever deal Heathrow, Gatwick, Manchester, Stansted, Edinburgh or Glasgow are offering to US airlines, is obviously not what Birmingham airport is offering, so that is why Birmingham is not only having difficulty in securing any agreement, but also maintaining and keeping it. That is where Birmingham airports problems are, until Birmingham airport management changes it's policy, then they won't get any direct flights at all, then lose out to other rival airports.

All airports have to make a profit !

BHX offers very generous reduction for new airlines / routes which last a few years, so sorry BHX is not expensive to launch a route.

If BHX was that expensive then Easyjet wouldn't set up a base here !

 

[Kevin Farnell]

Andrew, you are always so critical of BHX management and quote high prices as the reason for airlines not operating from BHX, but you cannot possibly know what financial agreements exist between BHX and individual airlines (unless you are on the management board of BHX). BHX will offer competitive rates to other UK airports, but they will not go so low that they bankrupt the airport (which would probably result in it becoming a housing/retail estate).
The role of BHX management (which I have said several times before), is to provide the best dividend (profit) possible for it's investors, not to try and get every airline under the sun to operate from there. BHX has a great range of national, regional and low cost operators that many UK airports would love to have, including a new easyjet base.
Please stop blaming BHX management. They are doing a great job and we don't know what discussions and possible new services are in the pipeline.

 

[Birmingham Aviation]

Andrew, you are always so critical of BHX management and quote high prices as the reason for airlines not operating from BHX, but you cannot possibly know what financial agreements exist between BHX and individual airlines (unless you are on the management board of BHX). BHX will offer competitive rates to other UK airports, but they will not go so low that they bankrupt the airport (which would probably result in it becoming a housing/retail estate).
The role of BHX management (which I have said several times before), is to provide the best dividend (profit) possible for it's investors, not to try and get every airline under the sun to operate from there. BHX has a great range of national, regional and low cost operators that many UK airports would love to have, including a new easyjet base.
Please stop blaming BHX management. They are doing a great job and we don't know what discussions and possible new services are in the pipeline.

Sorry but the forum is here for all views and opinions.If no 1 can comment an opinion then we’ll what’s the point of a forum

 

[TM3]

Maybe I missed something but I understood that MH had raised a possible return to MAN.

The situation with MH is slightly different though as they are a competitor of SQ, Thai and CX.

If they went early at BHX they could be the first choice SE Asia hub rather than 3rd or 4th depending on whether Thai launch at MAN.

In addition they are One World, which gives the chance to earn BA miles and status along with Qatar and somewhat complementing the existing connections with Qatar.

My concern about HS2 is your theory works both ways and anything that makes it easier to get to the London airports will only further hamper the UK regions from getting a slice of the cake.

I don't see that necessarily as a bad thing in terms fo the marketability of the region and the airport.

Personally I already use LHR extensively anyway for long haul so I don't see BHX has anything to loose.

I don't see HS2 as particularly increasing my desire to go to Stansted or LGW , definitely not for a sort haul destination at least, and I wouldn't anyway if the services were at BHX.

 

[GliderPilot]

Come on gentlemen let's call a spade a spade, if there is the demand for these routes from BHX they'd exist or there would be a hell of a lot more noise around them than the quiet hopeful whispering we see.

I've no doubt the long haul narrow body types may one day enable the return of a link to the East Coast of America and potentially Canada, but let's face it BHX is primarily a bucket and spade airport whether we like it or not. Look at the difference between Winter and Summer on the flight schedule, it speaks volumes.

Though unfortunate, I'd also have to agree that HS2 and the West Coast Mainline enable more people to get to Heathrow than anyone coming back the other way to use BHX.

If this forum has taught me anything in the now years I've been using it, it's to take absolutely everything airline or route-related with a grain of salt until you see wheels on the runway. Even then it can always disappear far faster than it started.

 

[Ianbutty]

Glider pilot: Sadly, I agree. bHx is a cheapo resort airport. As the FT said many many years again, MAN covers the north and LHR covers the south because of geography. We on the other hand cover the beaches of cheapo Med destinations. Whooohoo.

Geography sucks sometimes. But every now and then.....

 

[Deleted member 8277]

All airports have to make a profit !

BHX offers very generous reduction for new airlines / routes which last a few years, so sorry BHX is not expensive to launch a route.

If BHX was that expensive then Easyjet wouldn't set up a base here !

BHX may not expensive to launch new airlines but after the very generous reduction ends maybe they think again when cost go up substantially.......American airlines springs to mind, easy jet...lets see how far they expand in an already saturated market.

Come on gentlemen let's call a spade a spade, if there is the demand for these routes from BHX they'd exist or there would be a hell of a lot more noise around them than the quiet hopeful whispering we see.

I've no doubt the long haul narrow body types may one day enable the return of a link to the East Coast of America and potentially Canada, but let's face it BHX is primarily a bucket and spade airport whether we like it or not. Look at the difference between Winter and Summer on the flight schedule, it speaks volumes.

Though unfortunate, I'd also have to agree that HS2 and the West Coast Mainline enable more people to get to Heathrow than anyone coming back the other way to use BHX.

If this forum has taught me anything in the now years I've been using it, it's to take absolutely everything airline or route-related with a grain of salt until you see wheels on the runway. Even then it can always disappear far faster than it started.

Well said glider. Fantasists needs to stops dreaming about these long haul routes. BHX as glider says is primarily a bucket and spade airport. United, american airlines couldn't make it work long term to New York , air india haven't re-started the previous Canada route and the non existent far east routes that have never materialised and keep popping up are a pipe dream. Sandwiched between LHR and MAN catchment areas make it very difficult for BHX to be viable or profitable to operate.
The BHX team can carry on with their jolly all expenses expenses paid trips around the world banging the BHX drums but in reality that it......Jolly's for the boy/girls.

 

[TM3]

I'm surprised about the negativity surrounding HS2's additional connectivity to London.

At the moment 100% of our travellers to the US are leaking to other airports so it couldn't really get much worse.

I do agree that the HS2 relationship needs to be carefully managed. Ideally there would be some special fares only for those holding a ticket or boarding pass to BHX of some sort of special advance ticket fro BHX flyers.

I also think it would be useful for the airport to sell London tickets at arrivals, like they do at LHR, just to raise awareness of the London link.

 

[andrew.clarkson]

Hi there Glider pilot, I couldn't agree anymore, Birmingham airport will never handle those tens of millions of passengers that Mr Paul Keogh kept going on about. As I have said this before, when the current airport was built in 1984, the airport management had the chance and opportunity to acquire the additional land and extend the runway then, which would have helped in putting the airport on the map and enable it's expansion to something like Manchester airport, where it would try and bring in the business like Manchester did, when they extended their runaway in the 80s, to what Birmingham did some thirty plus years later, but is not attracting the business that it should be, you hear those travel experts saying that only 40% of those people that lives within the west midlands and Warwickshire area are only using Birmingham airport presently, so then you have to ask to question, where have the other 50 or 60% of them gone to. Well the simple answer is, to it's rival airports that offer those flights, where Birmingham airport doesn't, and where it's been losing out all these years. Birmingham airport for many years has been known as a catch up airport. Only soaking up any excess business available and what is left, what Birmingham airport lacks is the ability to match itself like other airports, but unfortunately can't. Yes it's great news to hear that easyJet are finally here, to hope that they can fill any gaps that will create new business, but also expand it's route network as far as it can. Let's also hope that other existing carriers that operate from Birmingham airport can also see and invest in other routes from Birmingham airport, that will expand it as far as they can.

As per my previous post, I for one don't like knocking or being negative about Birmingham airport as some of you think I am. Well that is where your wrong, I have always supported the airport and always will, I used to work at both Elmdon and the current airport in the late eighties, which I thoroughly enjoyed, but those jobs were only seasonal, plus I was also born at the then Marston Green hospital, which is no longer, which is only 5, 10 minutes away from the airport.

 

[KARFA]

I also think it would be useful for the airport to sell London tickets at arrivals, like they do at LHR, just to raise awareness of the London link.

HEX is owned by Heathrow airport so they have always had an interest in putting HEX people at the arrivals exits to sell the overpriced tickets to unknowing visitors prior to them exiting landside and finding the much cheaper tube or crossrail. HS2 would be quite different in that sense as BHX has no financial interest in it.

 

[Kevin Farnell]

Sorry but the forum is here for all views and opinions.If no 1 can comment an opinion then we’ll what’s the point of a forum

There is a difference between an opinion and making statements regarding costing/management for which there is no evidence provided. Making statements such as -

Birminghams issue all this time is down to costing purposes. What ever deal Heathrow, Gatwick, Manchester, Stansted, Edinburgh or Glasgow are offering to US airlines, is obviously not what Birmingham airport is offering, so that is why Birmingham is not only having difficulty in securing any agreement, but also maintaining and keeping it.

And -

until Birmingham airport management changes it's policy, then they won't get any direct flights at all, then lose out to other rival airports.

are not opinions, but appear to state facts. However, these 'facts' cannot be backed up with references (and could therefore be libellous), as only BHX management and the airlines know what costs have been agreed. This information is not available to the public and therefore should not be stated by a member, as if they have access to it. Please see the Forum rules - https://forums4airports.com/threads/584/ particularly section 2.0.

 

[TM3]

Hi there Glider pilot, I couldn't agree anymore, Birmingham airport will never handle those tens of millions of passengers that Mr Paul Keogh kept going on about. As I have said this before, when the current airport was built in 1984, the airport management had the chance and opportunity to acquire the additional land and extend the runway then, which would have helped in putting the airport on the map and enable it's expansion to something like Manchester airport,

When you make a comparison with MAN you've got to accept that the lion's share of traffic at MAN is on bucket and spade routes like the Canary Islands and Spain, which obviously leads to higher passenger numbers but doesn't really do anything to make the airport more attractive to business travellers.

Furthermore, other than connectors to other city hubs most of the short haul connections are on budget airlines or package holiday routes.

These conditions make it very difficult for an entrant to come in a start hubbing traffic which is what allows airports like LHR or DUB to grow exponentially.

The situation at BHX right now is developing in a similar way but it's not as far down the road as some of the regular routes once operated by Flybe have not yet been filled or have not yet been filled to the same frequency Flybe once provided.

Although Flybe was much derided it did once provide an opportunity for a larger carrier or alliance to assimilate it's services into a wider network with sufficiently regular flights to hub passengers.

Without an airline providing something like Flybe did BHX is likely to continue to develop like MAN as air traffic continues to grow and there are smaller longer range aircraft either in production or in the pipeline that are likely to make long haul routes more viable.

There is of course a major economic benefit to the UK of having a genuine hub airport outside of LHR, as opposed to a hub feeder, wherever it is located.

 

[andrew.clarkson]

A

Hi there all, did my last post get received, I I can't see it.

Hi there all, did my last post get received, I I can't see it.

 

[Ashley.S.]

A

Hi there all, did my last post get received, I I can't see it.

Hi there all, did my last post get received, I I can't see it.

I'm not seeing anything in the moderator's log regarding any posts being removed recently from you, any issues I'd recommending sending direct messages (aka conversations) to the moderators of the forum, but perhaps it could be a technical hitch?

 

[Kevin Farnell]

A

Hi there all, did my last post get received, I I can't see it.

Hi there all, did my last post get received, I I can't see it.

Prior to this post, the last one that I see from you is -

Hi there Glider pilot, I couldn't agree anymore, Birmingham airport will never handle those tens of millions of passengers that Mr Paul Keogh kept going on about. As I have said this before, when the current airport was built in 1984, the airport management had the chance and opportunity to acquire the additional land and extend the runway then, which would have helped in putting the airport on the map and enable it's expansion to something like Manchester airport, where it would try and bring in the business like Manchester did, when they extended their runaway in the 80s, to what Birmingham did some thirty plus years later, but is not attracting the business that it should be, you hear those travel experts saying that only 40% of those people that lives within the west midlands and Warwickshire area are only using Birmingham airport presently, so then you have to ask to question, where have the other 50 or 60% of them gone to. Well the simple answer is, to it's rival airports that offer those flights, where Birmingham airport doesn't, and where it's been losing out all these years. Birmingham airport for many years has been known as a catch up airport. Only soaking up any excess business available and what is left, what Birmingham airport lacks is the ability to match itself like other airports, but unfortunately can't. Yes it's great news to hear that easyJet are finally here, to hope that they can fill any gaps that will create new business, but also expand it's route network as far as it can. Let's also hope that other existing carriers that operate from Birmingham airport can also see and invest in other routes from Birmingham airport, that will expand it as far as they can.

As per my previous post, I for one don't like knocking or being negative about Birmingham airport as some of you think I am. Well that is where your wrong, I have always supported the airport and always will, I used to work at both Elmdon and the current airport in the late eighties, which I thoroughly enjoyed, but those jobs were only seasonal, plus I was also born at the then Marston Green hospital, which is no longer, which is only 5, 10 minutes away from the airport.

I have not deleted any posts.

 

[gulftraveller]

When you make a comparison with MAN you've got to accept that the lion's share of traffic at MAN is on bucket and spade routes like the Canary Islands and Spain, which obviously leads to higher passenger numbers but doesn't really do anything to make the airport more attractive to business travellers.

Furthermore, other than connectors to other city hubs most of the short haul connections are on budget airlines or package holiday routes.

These conditions make it very difficult for an entrant to come in a start hubbing traffic which is what allows airports like LHR or DUB to grow exponentially.

The situation at BHX right now is developing in a similar way but it's not as far down the road as some of the regular routes once operated by Flybe have not yet been filled or have not yet been filled to the same frequency Flybe once provided.

Although Flybe was much derided it did once provide an opportunity for a larger carrier or alliance to assimilate it's services into a wider network with sufficiently regular flights to hub passengers.

Without an airline providing something like Flybe did BHX is likely to continue to develop like MAN as air traffic continues to grow and there are smaller longer range aircraft either in production or in the pipeline that are likely to make long haul routes more viable.

There is of course a major economic benefit to the UK of having a genuine hub airport outside of LHR, as opposed to a hub feeder, wherever it is located.

But it is all about airlines. Airports are no more than facilities for them. Airlines go where they think the business is. MAN and even more so, BHX, are unlikely to become hubs for an airline feeding short haul to long haul. Who cares whether growth at MAN or BHX is from tourism or business if the airlines are happy with their operations from there?

 

[Kevin Farnell]

But it is all about airlines. Airports are no more than facilities for them. Airlines go where they think the business is. MAN and even more so, BHX, are unlikely to become hubs for an airline feeding short haul to long haul. Who cares whether growth at MAN or BHX is from tourism or business if the airlines are happy with their operations from there?

Whilst I agree with the majority of what you say, the relationship between airlines and airports should be looked upon as a joint venture,for each service/route. There will have been many months, or possibly years of negotiations between the two to reach an agreeable contract. That will involve many factors, including landing fees, slot times, forecast passenger figure growth etc. Without the airports, the airlines would be nothing and without the airlines, the airports would be nothing.

 

[andrew.clarkson]

Hi there Kevin Farnell, how does someone just leave the forum, full stop

 

[Kevin Farnell]

Hi there Kevin Farnell, how does someone just leave the forum, full stop

Please don't leave, Andrew. You are a valued member of our community!

 

[HPsauce]

A

Hi there all, did my last post get received, I I can't see it.

Hi there all, did my last post get received, I I can't see it.

Hi Andrew Clarkson. A post came through earlier this morning from you, but all it read was A. ( see above). It was subsequently merged with your next message, which was duplicated and merged also. ( see above).
Hope this explains the situation.