Future Infrastructure Developments

[lbaspotter]

I noticed on Tuesday evening whilst passing the airport that at least one of the full sized single deck buses is now in use on the Car Park to Terminal service.
For info the veachle is painted all white, it's duel door and is low floor easy accessible as well. Well actually if I'm be honest its a second hand "Dennis Dart" wreck,

 

[Aviador]

http://www.yorkshireeveningpost.co.uk/news/business-news/business-headlines/take-off-for-leeds-bradford-airport-improvements-1-6756357

I'm trying to see the positives from this news story as well as the negatives.

Clearly there is a need for additional parking spaces. I'm not convinced building more and more car-parks on green fields is the answer and in any case surely any new development should be terminal based if the airport is to carry any more passengers?

Stories of passengers sprawled across the floor of departures is not a good selling point, especially for an airport wishing to "rise above the rest", perhaps in the league table for poor service and customer care if we are to believe comments on skytrax?

We have been repeatedly told to be patient, "the terminal will grow as the passengers grow". So Mr Organ Grinder, where is it?

So my conclusion so far as the buses go...

Negative from a public and workforce perspective: Larger buses + fewer drivers required? + fewer bus stops? Longer walk to car? = less happy customers?

Positive from a company perspective: Fewer buses? + fewer maintenance bills? + fewer wage bills?

 

[TheLocalYokel]

This sort of thing seems par for the course in so many industries these days. I've been told that Barclays Bank is withdrawing all counter staff later this year leaving customers to embark on do-it-yourself adventures each time they visit a branch. No doubt the directors and senior officers will enjoy a bonus on the back of poorer service to customers and the loss of jobs at the bottom of the pile.

Although there are arguments as to who said this in anger - the Roman Petronius is often quoted - it's still apposite today:

I was to learn later in life that we tend to meet any new situation by reorganising;
and a wonderful method it can be for creating the illusion of progress
while producing confusion, inefficiency, and demoralization.

As to B 737's comment Bristol Airport generally receives poor reports in Skytrax and over £100 million has been spent on their terminal and associated infrastructures in the past 15 years with more taking place now and more in the future. Some punters will never be satisfied. One once wrote that he or she would never use BHX again because there was no water fountain in the terminal. I wonder if there is now.

 

[White Heather]

Well that has gone down well hasn't it? Not! Being a bit more positive (to balance the clear negativity and cynicism) - surely larger buses with more seats and space and increased frequency is a good thing? The walking distance to the buses has not increased significantly - cut throughs are being made so that bus shelters can be quickly accessed from each car park - just like at other major airports in fact. Colour keyed bus shelters will help customers identify where they need to get off when they return to their car and the bus now drops them off right outside the airport door - removing any need to walk in the terrible LBA weather and stopping passengers getting any wetter than they already are (due to having to walk so far to the bus!). Internal improvements, although minor, are at least intended to rectify some of the issues noted pending anything more meaningful in terms of terminal developments. It seems to me that whatever slight improvements are made at LBA, they will not be welcomed because all we really want, is a terminal expansion, more aircraft parking stands, new roads, a railway link, a new runway, changes to the ILS and all the other things that are perceived to be holding LBA back.

 

[SNOWMAN]

white heather
I don't need a rail-link etc,what I would like is the terminal sorting out once and for all,reason we don't like sitting on the floor theres not enough seats LBA does not give a good start to our holls,my wife likes to fly from Doncaster,we have flown 5 times this year so we can be sure of a seat
regards
sm1 :

 

[rmac]

I personally consider comments on Skytrax and other "review" sites as generally a waste of time. I recently booked a 4* hotel in Bradford at a very good price, but some comments posted in the review section were off putting. Nevertheless I used the hotel - it was excellent and you wonder how and why some made critical comments.
As for larger and better buses at LBA. Every improvement is a step in the right direction and I welcome that. I have used many airports in the UK and in my opinion LBA is fine and I have every reason to use it again.

 

[lbaspotter]

And for anyone interested this is what the newly acquired bigger Airport Car Park shuttle buses look like and how much closer they get up to the Terminal Building.

Source http://www.ttgdigital.com/

 

[Aviador]

That is certainly a huge advantage over the previous bus service. Being dropped off outside the door will be well received by those who use it.

White Heather, there is no "perception of LBA being held back". The proof is in the pudding. The latest CAA stats show LBA is now in negative growth as airports like LHR, LGW, EMA, GLA, EDI, EXT, BFS, MAN, BRS, BHX and ABZ saunter onwards and upwards. Like LBA787 has commented in another thread, up to four aircraft have been parked on taxiways overnight for much of the summer. This is a far from ideal situation. The management's comment saying no airlines have approached the airport to request additional stands or facilities is ridiculous. If they really haven't, perhaps this is because airlines are choosing to operate from other neighbouring airports that are providing the required facilities.

As LBA787 has already said, no shooting the messenger White Heather, you are not to blame.

 

[dmrodgers]

Whatever defence one tries to make about the airport and ownership one has to just look at the facts as pointed out and the airport is in decline. The signs says Yorkshire's Premier Airport, well just look at the terminal, it is a disgrace for cities the size of Leeds and Bradford, cheap materials used in the upgrade which were good at the time are now looking tired and worn, total lack of seating with passengers sitting on floors, boarding gates inadequate for the number of passengers and a baggage reclamation that can not cope when two or more aircraft have landing close together. I can name you lots of passengers living in close proximity to the airport who will no longer use it and prefer to travel to Doncaster or Manchester where the passenger experience is so much better. We can not continue loosing passenger numbers like this to other airports, passenger perception whatever anyone may think is poor, yes only people who complain tend to comment on websites but many more I know have had bad experiences at Leeds and will not use the airport again until improvements are made.

As for improving services, forget it, someone has to make the decision to improve the runway, totally inadequate for most airlines, no wonder we can't attract any medium to long haul airlines. Money has to be spent moving the threshold as a minimum, yes it cost money but to say the cost will only have marginal impact on extra flights is just not true. With a decent runway we have the ability to attract airlines and the catchment area to fill these aircraft. The hopeful saviour the Boeing 787 is not going to happen, we have sat still while other airports are moving forward. How long can Jet 2 keep its aging fleet going, new replacement aircraft are going to have the same restriction as their current 737-800 fleet, more diversions, more cancellation, more upset passengers who will never use the airport again. We have to have a vision, no we are never going to rival Manchester with passenger numbers but we need the foresight and someone to spend some money otherwise the airport will die a slow death.

I know it will not be popular by some contributors on here but we have to face up to it without work on the terminal and runway we have no long term sustainable future as an International Airport.

 

[whoshotjimmi]

@dmrogers

I agreed with you right up until the point that you said that people prefer to go to Manchester because the passenger experience is so much better.

It isn't.

In fact, I would say that, not only is Manchester the worst passenger experience in Britain, it is among the worst in the world. The single only reason that I use Manchester is the range of flights. If I can avoid it, I do.

I have been critical of LBA's terminal since the "upgrade". In the last 12 months I have flown nearly 20 times and LBA, frankly, is not bad in comparison to other airports. Granted, there is not enough space in the terminal at peak times and it certainly does not mean that LBA should not be improved. However, my experiences at, particularly, Geneva and Manchester this year show how much better LBA is than we give it credit for.

 

[rmac]

It seems a common complaint that even after the 'upgrade' the terminal is still crowded. It wasn't when I last used LBA but that was midday however I seem to recall that a further extension to the main terminal was planned, ie. building to the front and repositioning the check in desks etc. Is this still the plan or has it been abandoned, shelved to another day of what?

 

[Bigman]

whoshotjimmi...I am fully with you on the Manchester front. Having flown from there more times than I would have liked to (ie every time!!), the place is a complete dump. Miles of walking from the railway station..lifts...escalators...travelators that aren’t working...the list goes on. Why anyone would prefer to fly from there beggars belief.

We all know that rather than patch up here and there and bolt on a few plastic/tin sheds every now and then, LBA should have gone the whole hog and built a brand new purpose built terminal the full length of the apron from stand 8. This could have had 3 separate floors, one for arrivals, one for departures and one for offices, conference rooms and a landside cafe with viewing.

They could have put a large multi-story car park at the East end, and also a walkway going right across the car park and road to serve the Travelodge and also a new railway station.

Needless to say we could have had air bridges to every stand. The old terminal could then have been razed to the ground and the apron extended back to take larger aircraft.

Sadly, I can never see this happening without someone with balls taking a bold decision and realise that you need to speculate to accumulate and get the cheque book out.

 

[White Heather]

I think some are missing my 'tongue in cheek' point. I don't argue that the terminal needs sorting - badly. It is vastly better than before, but still poor in some areas. It may well be half empty at times but as long as people are sitting on the floor at peak times, it is not adequate. This is not unique to LBA though. When I flew to Montreal from LHR Terminal 3 in 2010, there were more people on the floor than on seats. It was total mayhem in there. LBA management will know the issues, and rmac, to answer your question, the extension of the terminal is still 'on the agenda'. In fact the changes made to the terminal last time were designed to minimise the impact when the time comes to expand it.

My point is - the bus service and car park changes attracted negativity in the posts on this thread. Personally I think any improvement is worth having and I think it is an improvement. My perception is that because of the weaknesses of LBA, (terminal, runway, ILS, parking stands etc), all other improvements are seen as a negative rather than a positive. Irrespective of the absence of development in the areas we would all like to see, I think that where the airport does something positive, it should be recognised as such, rather than immediately opting to complain about what isn't happening instead.

As for people who won't use LBA because it is so bad - well fine, they are entitled to their opinion. Like others, I think MAN is a dump. All my worst experiences ever have been at MAN and I have always enjoyed using LBA, whether crowded or not - even when I have experienced delays, it is vastly preferable to MAN. I would do almost anything to avoid the M62 journey to MAN anyway, and unless I was forced I wouldn't use DSA as a matter of principle as when it was opened it was intended to pull most of its passengers away from LBA and MAN.

It is said LBA is in decline. Is it? Other airports are now growing, but in the last few years, they were in decline compared to LBA. These things have a habit of balancing out. Other airports had their decline and are now bouncing back. LBA grew well against the trend, and has now flattened off - hopefully temporarily. No airport can continue growth year on year without occasionally flattening off or experiencing a slight decline and it would be unrealistic to expect otherwise. LBA management know that if they are to get to 5m pax per year, more has to be done, but there is a tendency to expect it all to happen at once. I too would love them to just throw multiple millions at a brand new terminal, new runway (longer), better ILS, more parking stands, parallel taxiway, new roads, rail-link etc, but it isn't going to happen like that. If they extend the terminal by spending another £15m, some will then complain that they haven't done the runway so there are too many diverts, and if they extend the parking stands, some will say they should have done the terminal. Reality is that they will do these things in priority order and as the company makes a case for the funding from Bridgepoint Capital. I know its disppointing to see our growth spurt coming to a halt, but I am sure LBA management will be equally wishing to ensure it starts again in 2015 - and they have indicated it will.

Lest we forget - for many many years LBA was held back by our backward thinking councils and Governments at the time, so the airports we are trying to catch up had 20 - 30 years head start on LBA. Frankly it amazes me that we are even thinking in the same ball park now as the likes of Bristol, Liverpool, Newcastle etc. We are not going to catch them up over a few years - unless anyone knows a rich tycoon who wants to buy and airport instead of a football club and throw his fortune at it!

 

[User0001]

In fact, I would say that, not only is Manchester the worst passenger experience in Britain, it is among the worst in the world. The single only reason that I use Manchester is the range of flights. If I can avoid it, I do

Like others, I think MAN is a dump. All my worst experiences ever have been at MAN

whoshotjimmi...I am fully with you on the Manchester front. Having flown from there more times than I would have liked to (ie every time!!), the place is a complete dump. Miles of walking from the railway station..lifts...escalators...travelators that aren’t working...the list goes on. Why anyone would prefer to fly from there beggars belief.

I personally feel that these comments are quite strong, so, please can I ask what the 'huge issue' is with MAN?

The reason I ask, is that I have used MAN 250+ times (no exaggeration, I travel a LOT), and those who are saying it is one of the 'worst in the world', obviously haven't been very far at all (I can list many many places which are worse)

Whether Im just lucky (at 250+ journeys, its unlikely it is all luck), but going outbound from MAN I have never had to wait more than 20 minutes to get through security, which, for a 20million plus airport and at peak time, is no mean feat. Inbound I have had just 3x 1 hour or more waits at security. However, as a seasoned traveller I just accept that once in a while, queues will happen. Ive had much worse queues at JFK, DEN, LAX, HND, LAS, SYD.

Aesthetically, yes, the exterior of T3/T1 is poor, and T3 is very cramped. Inside T1 and T2 however, is no worse than some of the 'best' airports quite frankly. Like I say, if you think MAN is bad, head to Abuja, Lagos, Niarobi etc. They are truly the 'worst in the world'. Even the San Diego terminal was poorer than MAN.

As for having 'miles of walking', well, its a large airport handling 22 million people. You cannot have a small LBA sized terminal and handle that amount of people. Lets not forget, MAN can see as many passengers in 1 hour as LBA does in 1 day. It is totally unreasonable to think that an airport handling 22 million people can function the same way as one handling 3 million. Again, most of the USA airports have miles of walking, as does Palma. Christ, I even walked further in FUE than I did MAN on my last holiday!

 

[yorkguy]

My partner is a nervous flier and tries to avoid an LBA landing at all costs. She hates the runway slam down and face in the back of the seat in front. A Manchester landing is far preferable for her, though personally I usually find the M62 or the dire First Transpennine express a more unpleasant experience than a heavy LBA landing.
As for the terminals, I couldn't care less. They're a means to an end in my view. Most US terminals are very basic and the customer service is hostile at best. They make Mcr feel like the friendliest, most efficient organisation on the planet.

 

[Aviador]

We can all sit here and mock Manchester airport for it's performance but as I said previously, the proof is in the pudding. Passengers from this region are travelling across the Pennines in droves passing the end of the runway at LBA heading west across the M62. As user001 has said, many of the comments of displeasure about Manchester airport are down to it's shear size not the service it provides. LBA was taken over by Bridgepoint over seven years ago with promises of "no more piece meal extensions". Using the councils failure to sort the airport out is becoming a tiresome excuse now. Seven years after the sale of the airport and we're still waiting for the job to be done. Bridgepoint's marriage with LBA must surely be due it's seven year hitch.

 

[Aviador]

It seems a common complaint that even after the 'upgrade' the terminal is still crowded. It wasn't when I last used LBA but that was midday however I seem to recall that a further extension to the main terminal was planned, ie. building to the front and repositioning the check in desks etc. Is this still the plan or has it been abandoned, shelved to another day of what?

Shelved so far as we can tell. The planning permission was extended, but so was the permission for the b-hall tent which was only supposed to be there for five years and 10 years on...

The money spent on the latest bus drop off outside the terminal front just proves the airport has no immediate intention of commencing the previously planned terminal development.

Rant over... :whiteflag:

 

[Bigman]

OK user001. As a user of public transport, I basically have no choice other than to use the train to get to Manchester Airport. Every... and I mean every time I have travelled by train, I have suffered hold ups en route including a 10 minute wait outside the station for a platform on one occasion (hopefully the new platform will now resolve this issue).

I then have to drag a case up a ramp or up a lift to the first level, and then a second lift up to walkway level (going to T1 by the way). On the last occasion I went, only 1 of the 3 travelators was working (I have never been there when 3/3 were working). So quite a long walk just to the check in desks. No problems with check in. Central screening a bit onerous but no worse than any other airport (Singapore is worse!!). You then have a long through what seems an endless central duty free shopping area. I have probably been unlucky in that every time I travel we seem to be on gates at the very end of stands, so lots of walking required.

My worst experiences have always been on arrival back at Manchester. We waited 15 minutes just to get on stand on one occasion. There are lots of stairs to negotiate between the gates and immigration depending which gate you arrive at, and again a long walk. The last 2 times I was there I have to wait for over 20 minutes to get through immigration. (I have got through Chicago quicker on both occasions I have been there). Baggage reclaim has also been very slow (I guess Gatwick are even worse at present). And then of course there is the long trek back to the railway station again.

So yes, my opinion of Manchester airport is not a good one I am afraid.

 

[ridgeback]

MAN is broadly ok and is undoubtedly a totally different proposition to LBA serving as it does 20-odd million pax pa. It could do much much better though IMO.

I had reason to catch a shuttle there recently and can only say that compared to arriving at LBA I wasn't impressed. Firstly immediately after disembarkation we went down a long flight of stairs with our bags, them to baggage reclaim and a long wait and after that I set off to Leeds on the TransPennine express.

Access from the BA terminal (3?) to 'the station' is dire. You walk outside for a bit, following signs that then disappear, end up queuing for a MASSIVE lift with about 40-odd others all with bags (no exaggeration) and then set off along the travelators that also weren't all working for me to the other end where it's another lift to the ticket concourse. £25 for a one way to Leeds the train went as far as Picadilly and conked out for 50 mins whereupon we were herded onto another train, standing room only, for the rest of the journey.

I appreciate the last part isn't MAN's fault but all I ever hear about the TPE is that that is a fairly normal experience.

All in all I found the whole LHR-MAN-Leeds commute deeply unimpressive and think there was a lack of joined up thinking when MAN was designed many years ago.

Maybe other terminals there are wholly different. The one BA use is very old.

 

[ridgeback]

Further to my last. Options getting to West Yorkshire from Heathrow in my preffered order:

1) LBA shuttle

2) tube to KX and East Coast to Leeds

3) MAN shuttle and TPE to Leeds

My reasons for that are that an hour on the Piccadilly Line combined with the outstanding connections T5-tube station and St Pancras-mainline departures make that option for me far preferable to the miserable experience from the minute you set foot into MAN airport to alighting at Leeds station.