Future Infrastructure Developments

[whoshotjimmi]

There is only so much that retail will be able to take. At the end of the day, they are unable to generate their own custom and rely solely on the passenger throughput of the airport. With that in mind, there needs to be a proportional amount of space for retail. Enough so that they are able to serve as many potential customers as possible but not so much that they are paying terminal rent on space that is under utilised. The other thing to take into consideration is that well thought out retail and food outlets can pacify bored and restless passengers. It would be very easy to have the whole floor space to seating but it would be SO incredibly dull and lifeless. A good compromise between the two is the best thing.

I think the argument about Bridgepoint and whatnot has run its course on this thread. I think we can all agree that the announced investment is not what we would have liked or were promised but that it is a positive step forward for the airport and that we are all happy that LBA is moving in the right direction. As and when the upgrade is complete, we will be able to judge how successful the investment has been based on customer experience and passenger numbers. Until then, we can assist by providing constructive comment on ongoing works. You never know, what we say may encourage LBA to add that little touch they hadn't thought about. And I would like to start that by saying that there are possibly better colours to paint a wall than dark red!!

 

[Bigman]

Well, the last week of posts has been very interesting and reminds me I need to read War and Peace at some point.

As the job is now finally happening, I am going to wait until it is all done and dusted before passing any more comments on how good or bad I think it is.

 

[Jordan-34092]

Well, the last week of posts has been very interesting and reminds me I need to read War and Peace at some point.

As the job is now finally happening, I am going to wait until it is all done and dusted before passing any more comments on how good or bad I think it is.

You've enjoyed every minute of this thread haven't you

 

[Bigman]

Certainly have. Beats Eastenders any day!!

 

[lbaspotter]

Oh no it was bound to happen sometime. Yes you've guess it the airport haters down at the local rag The Yorkshire Evening Post (YEP) have had another damaging dig at LBA tonight by looks off things. As this artical has appeared regarding the airports £11 million terminal development which was announced last week.

Source: http://www.yorkshireeveningpost.co....ling_a_pup_over_plans_for_expansion_1_4054057

Leeds Bradford Airport ‘selling a pup’ over plans for expansion

NEW LOOK: An artists impression of how part of the new airport terminal will look. Councillors have hit out at the increase in traffic expansion will cause.

Published on Tuesday 13 December 2011 05:30

Major airport extension plans at Leeds Bradford are ignoring the communities who live in the area, claim local councillors.

The airport announced plans last week to expand its capacity from three to four million passengers a year.

Local councillors point out that there was nothing included in the announcement of any additional infrastructure to support the expected big increase in passengers.

Liberal Democrat councillors for Horsforth Brian Cleasby and Chris Townsley are strongly critical of the plans which they believe will pile more traffic on to roads already suffering severe congestion.

Coun Chris Townsley (Lib Dem, Horsforth) said: “Many of the extra passengers coming from the south and the east will go through Horsforth to get to the airport.

“It’s all well and good the airport saying they want this massive expansion but they clearly haven’t given the slightest bit of thought to the effect they’ll have on local communities.

“Five years ago council officers declared that the A65 had reached its capacity. Nothing has been done to improve the situation yet today we find the airport director trying sell a pup to our community.

“A bigger airport must have improved roads, both to and from it.”

Coun Brian Cleasby (Lib Dem, Horsforth) said: “There is no consideration given in these plans to improve the road infrastructure leading to the airport.

“I have heard the chief executive of the airport say he wants to maximise the airport’s income from parking charges.

“This is outrageous, given how many times I have told him of my concerns that traffic from the east and south is being directed through Horsforth and Rawdon.

“The situation is so bad that route finder websites have started to direct traffic off the A65 and onto minor roads like Layton Lane in Rawdon as they reckon that’s now the quicker route.

“Quite frankly, the airport is trying to sell a pup to our community.”

 

[airforced]

I'm not familiar with the local politics around LBA but I suspect that lbaspotter is maybe blaming the YEP for something they haven't initiated. It sounds much more like a local councilor getting earache from residents and then"showing them" that he has done something about it by getting their concerns an airing in the local rag.

Or is he covering his own backside because of a lack of action by the Council(s) in keeping the roads up to date. After all I wonder how many more cars and houses there are now in Horsforth than there was 10 years ago. Etc, etc, etc. These sort of outbursts by Councilors and newspapers must, unfortunately, be expected near any airport.

 

[tleeds]

What actually is their problem? Everything the airport does is criticised by this rag!

Can the paper not see that there are more benefits to costs from the announcement.

I bet that even if the airport did spend a lot of money on improving roads around the airport, the YEP would either say; "this has not been done properly" or find something else to complain about.

There is just no pleasing some people...

 

[Jordan-34092]

you don't have the Telegraph and Argus slamming the airport, no instead there letting people know how well the airport is, with introduction of the 777, all that rag does is slam the airport, next there will be a campaign from them wanting the closure of the airport.

 

[Seasider]

As previously mentioned, it's a local councillor trying to score "brownie points" but he may have shot himself in the foot because he has highlight the fact that the Council has done very little to improve the roads in that area.

 

[User0001]

Can I ask 'White Heather' if you would, in the next committee meeting, ask on my behalf (and for other interested posters) about the updated LBIA Masterplan?

The masterplan was to be updated this year as part of the legal agreement and as you know the current owners; Bridgepoint, had nothing to do with the last one.

The LBIA website directs members of the public etc to view the 'old' masterplan but makes no reference to the FACT that it is a complete and utter load of old bunkum (for want of a better word!) dreamt up by the previous owners.

There is very little on any of the diagrams that is acurate or even going to be done.

Can you ask when the new masterplan will be able to be viewed?

You could ask why the 'old' masterplan shows a lovely new terminal building [not even in the shape that Bridgepoint planned] when all we are getting is a bus stop but i'll leave that upto you. Why hasn't extra text been added to the 'old' masterplan by Bridgepoint to inform people how innacurate it actually is?

Thanks in advance. MOT

 

[tleeds]

Just in a slight response to your query 'LUFC PETE' The LBIA Masterplan which was designed by the council back in 2005, Bridgepoint and the current LBA Management state is 'Still Active' and I do know they wish to pursue as much as they can, building upon the layout the council, the previous owners devised.

 

[User0001]

Sorry Tomleeds,

but i just do not accept that, if that is what you have been told.

A Masterplan needs to be accurate with actual plans that are going to take place. Not a load of wishy washy nonesense. Actual detailed plans of new apron space , taxyways, cargo buildings, fuel farm etc. There needs to be dates at least pencilled in dates.

So far the only thing that that has been constructed is car parks all the rest might as well have been dreamt up by a spotter with link roads and railways lol etc!!

That is why we have short term and long term masterplans so that people can clearly see what is going to be done in the short term and when it isn't done we can ask why it has not been done.

Look at other airport masterplans Tom. Clear plans of what is going to be done in the short term. Or there is no point even coming up with a masterplan unless it is just to placate and mislead people.

 

[tleeds]

Pete, they probably do have an accurate new Masterplan designed and ready to be released, I was only stating that it will be along similar lines to what the council devised back in 2005, hence why they are keeping the original masterplan, designed by the council 'Active'.

I agree with you that a masterplan has to be thoroughly thought through and designed down to the very last detail, and I am certain LBA will have something along these lines hidden away, to be released shortly.

 

[User0001]

Have absolutely no qualms with you Tom. I just think people should be able to see actual plans that are going to happen in the short term. If there are no real plans to do what is shown on the masterplan then do not show those plans - that is why i look forward to seeing Bridgepoint's masterplan to see how detailed it is. I fear that when we are eventually shown it - it will be a lot of open ended waffle.

Your statements that the masterplan is "still active" and that they are going to "pursue as much as they can" are exactly what we need to get away from.

The short term plans need to be able to stand up to scrutiny and Bridgepoint need to be accountable for those detailed plans.

 

[tleeds]

That's okay Pete, and I understand your frustration. The airport seem to be in "Cook-Oo Land" sometimes because they miss key opportunities for letting the public know what is going on and I think that can be blamed from the very top of Bridgepoint, to the Lower-Key Managers in the Airport. They did a botch job of the Anniversary where, I understand, many mistakes were made. They have also been very low-key on something they should be shouting about, a new terminal (well more-or-less!)

But I do disagree with you on the second point. When the council(s) budgeted for a masterplan for the airport, they included everything the airport would need; parallel taxiways, an extension of the runway (at both ends), more apron space, a fuel farm, on site catering facilities, a new A road to the airport as well as a rail link and, by the looks of the plans a brand new terminal along the current apron, where the 'bus-shelter' is going to be.
Because the council were looking into such things all the way into 2030, it makes it even easier for Bridepoint to possibly follow these plans. It would, not only dramatically improve the airport, but will also give them a lot more of a fighting chance of possibly getting 100% backing from the council(s) in terms of planning consent and possible funding (however slim).

So following the councils plans, in my view, is a lot better than dramatically creating their own...!

 

[User0001]

I'm afraid Tomleeds that you are just being completely misled which is exactly what the councils original masterplan was designed to do.

It was a Government requirement for each airport to produce a short term and long term masterplan. The then owners of LBIA (local councils) knew full well that they would be selling the airport therefore any development or scheme that was shown on the masterplan would not have to take place. The current masterplan which is of course still available to see on the website is a fictitious pile of make-believe. Like I previously said it might as well have been drawn by a LBIA plane enthusiast.

Of course Bridgepoint have not removed it or added text to state that it is very innacurate because they want people, like yourself, to think that these schemes are serious and in the pipeline. They are not serious and the vast majority of plans shown on the short term masterplan will not be built by Bridgepoint. For instance the extra apron space that should have been built in 2011.

The reason why Bridgepoint are very quiet on communicating their plans to the public is because their real plans are a huge climb down on what was originally proposed for the airport, hence building a bus shelter when what is needed is actually an enlarged terminal (among a lot of other things).

Bridgepoint I would argue are not in cuckoo land. They are actually very clever at spinning and being very economical with the truth when it comes to letting people know their true plans.

Of course if you want to believe that Bridgepoint will in anyway stick to the current masterplan's 'plans' then you can. In reality Bridgepoint will spend the absolute minimum amount of money to try and make some money back. The good thing is that this means more passengers at LBIA. The bad thing is that they will try to squeeze them through the terminal we already have and the rest of the airport, such as apron space and taxyways etc will be left untouched for the next owners to build. I have nothing against Bridgepoint they are just another big company trying to make as much money as possible and you cannot blame them for that but I am afraid the airport will not be developed properly by them.

 

[tleeds]

What your saying however has a serious flaw in the plans. If it was a necessary, compulsory action to draw-up a masterplan, like you say every airport did one, then the councils are not going to spend however much it costs to draw up a fully briefed 60 page document for it to never happen. There will have been implications in place where everything has to be realistic in an approach to an airport development, or every airport would have made up silly plans for a development, to like you say draw people in.

The fact that Bridgepoint is an investment corporation, bears little on the fact on how much they expand at LBA and I'll tell you why. No-body on this forum, no matter how experienced can predict how long they will remain the owners of LBA. Yes, we can look at the facts and figures and see the vast majority of companies similar to Bridgepoint stick around for a short while, and lumber it on to someone else after a few years with the aim of making a nice profit, but how do we not know they will stick around for a long time....?!
They have done wonders with Birmingham and have been able to kick-start a fantastic prospect for the airport and they remained the owners of BHX for several years.

Taken from the Bridgepoint website:
"Bridgepoint has invested in the airport sector in the past. In 1997, it became the largest private investor in Birmingham International Airport (BIA) as part of a financing programme to fund the ongoing development of the airport. It sold its stake in December 2001 and during this five year period international connections at BIA grew by 70%, traffic grew by 40% (reversing leakage to neighbouring airports) and capital expenditure reached almost £200 million."
Source: http://www.bridgepoint.eu/about-us/news ... al-airport

Taken from the Telegraph website:
"BRIDGEPOINT Capital, the venture capitalist, has virtually trebled its money in four years after yesterday selling its 24pc stake in Birmingham International Airport to Macquarie Airports, an Australian investment fund, for £84m.
Bridgepoint made an initial £27.3m investment in the airport in 1997, which it later increased to £31.3m when it bought out some minority shareholders.
The airport is Britain's fifth largest, handling 7.6m passengers in the year to March 2001, when turnover was almost £95m".
Source: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/2745 ... -deal.html

I do believe that with the work that was done at Birmingham, the right people have the airport to do the work. We have already had the debate on who should have got the airport and MAG, Peel etc all had to many other 'airport-related issues' that would hinder too much on LBA's growth.

 

[User0001]

The government MADE airports produce masterplans - it was a legal requirement. The local council spent the money but they get it from us the tax payers so there not too bothered. That's why people are loosing their jobs right now in the councils - because of our money being spent on needless exercises like the original masterplan.

I can predict what will happen. I may be wrong. If I am wrong you can say "LUFC PETE what you said was wrong - Bridgepoint have done and spent loads on LBIA".

 

[TheLocalYokel]

Most of the master plans for UK regional airports derive from the previous government's White Paper of 2003, The Future of Air Transport.

Much of the government's forecast then now seems over optimistic in view of the state of the national and world economy in the past few years and probably the next few.

In 2003 the future of civil aviation seemed much brighter than it does now. At that time many regional airports were beginning to experience significant growth - in some cases spectacular growth - compared with what they had ever seen before.

The White Paper's tone encouraged many of these airports to go to work with a will and they produced elaborate master plans that seemed sound at the time and, with some, may do in the future.

LBA has weathered the recession better than most UK regional airports and is an airport that does seem set for further outperformance relatively speaking. The owners will obviously have to decide how much they wish to invest to take advantage of this opportunity.

However, airport owners face a ticklish situation in deciding how much to invest in order to enhance their facility when the depth and length of the recession is unknown as is the future growth rate of airports in this country, even the better performing airports of which LBA is undoubtedly one.

Enhanced facilities would normally improve the value of the capital investment, something LBA's owners will obviously be taking into account if they have an idea that they may not wish to own the airport indefinitely. However, if the recession lasts a decade with a resultant negative influence on passenger numbers there is always the danger that spending a lot of money on upgrading facilities could leave them with a white elephant in terms of the value of their capital investment.

I would add that LBA is not alone in being way behind the timescale and scope of its master plan - far from it.

To take two examples, Bristol Airport is about five years behind the timescale set out in its master plan that was published around late 2004/early 2005 and intends carrying out its future expansion incrementally as traffic builds - if it builds (my italics). Cardiff Airport was expecting to be well on its way towards 5 mppa by now but in fact has gone backwards and is much nearer 1 mppa so none of its anticipated expansion has been built and the airport owners are seeking help from the public purse - they've already been offered £5 million by the Wales Assembly Government (approved by the EC) to tart up the terminal.

 

[White Heather]

Pete, the last Masterplan was entirely put together by the airport's deputy director at the time - not by council staff, so it wasted none of the council's money and certainly had nothing to do with the current job losses. The situation is exactly as outlined by Local Yokel. The Masterplan was done by all airports and based on the predictions within the Government White Paper. Due to the economic downturn, aviation taxes, fuel prices and various other things, the predictions have proven to be over optimistic to say the least. The Masterplan was also intended as a way to clear the way for future development of the airport, so as to avoid having to constantly jump hurdles in the form of public enquiries, planning blockages and NIMBY councillors and MP's who put their own votes ahead of the needs of the region. What was going to happen was down in the plan and there was a general acceptance that if the airport decided to go forward with the plans, they should not be prevented from doing so, as it was deemed to be 'Government Policy'. All that changed too with the change of Government and the Environmentalists increasing influence through constantly over-stating the impact of aviation on global warming.

There is now a requirement for all Masterplans to be revised to reflect the current position with the aviation industry. LBA will be doing so shortly, if they haven't already started. I do know that they delayed their start in order to better understand the impact of the downturn on their passenger numbers (I suspect they were waiting to see if they achieved the additional based aircraft by Ryanair and extra Jet2 routes). I also know that the impact of the public enquiry into off airport parking had a serious impact on their predicted income stream, (car parking accounts for some 30% of airport income) and they wanted to know what that impact would be before revising the Masterplan - the intention being that this one, will not prove to be a pipe dream and will better reflect the revised passenger growth. It will show the developments required, when they will be required and it will assist Bridgepoint (or future owners) to plan for the future in a more realistic manner.

We will almost certainly all get to see it before it is finalised and published, as airports have to make it available to the public. Last time they had meetings with local people and published the draft on the web site - that is a legal requirement I believe, so there will be plenty of chance for everyone to comment.

One other point - not everything in the Masterplan was for the airport alone to develop. The LBA Masterplan included the rail link from the Horsforth line through to the Ilkley line, the station at LBA, and a new link road between Bramhope, LBA and the A65 near Rawdon crematorium. None of these are within the airport's remit to build or fund. All require public and probably Government funding. Thus, the Masterplan was always a proposal as to what might be done in the future, not a definitive statement as to what would definitely happen.

Pete, the 'all we are getting is a bus shelter' joke is wearing a little thin now - I am beginning to wish they weren't building it after all now. Why not wait and see now what the terminal and walkway turn out like before running down the plans?