Sorry but I assumed that since we were talking about the airport, your comment was that I was negative about buses to the airport, which I am not. Nor am I negative about a new bus fleet with lower emissions and I have no problem either with Park and Rides. As a driver though, bus lanes, particularly full time ones, are a pain and my annoyance is that the Government have had a major impact in Leeds by turning down Supertram (and clearly then diverting the funds to Edinburgh instead - strange that the MP who said no to Leeds was an MP for that city isn't it?), encouraging something 'cheaper', then turning down the ill conceived trolley bus too. Meanwhile other cities and even towns were still building tram systems.

Very true but, as I have alluded to before, Metrolink would be nothing without having made that difficult first decision to close the lines to Bury and Altrincham and convert them to light rail - a decision made easier by the whole line being within Greater Manchester, affording the local authority a bit more control. Similar conversion of the Harrogate line would be the catalyst for all of the same type of infrastructure improvements in Leeds but the fact that Harrogate operates separately to West Yorkshire is a major stumbling block as, I'm sure, they would not allow it.
 
But aren't all these arguments backwards? Leeds has the cash and the freedom to do with that as it chooses... rather than wait for airport users to rise then try get govt to fund the rail link why don't we build the rail link now and watch airport users increase... a much bigger benefit to our economy than Park and ride sites...

Also if the rail link achieved 750k passengers then per working day that is approx 3k passengers daily.

For the £70m we could build circa 7 Park and ride sites with say 800 spaces. If full every working day that's 1.4m passengers. Yes that may be double but consider this... every single one of those will still have to drive to the park and ride site and park and ride has no benefit to the economy. growth is not possible either without further spend. an airport link could help increase airport passengers and boost the economy and can grow with the airport... plus all journeys take a car off the road completely
 
Connectivity is not the only precursor to growth, though it is important. Traffic and lack of transport options also hampers growth. For evidence of this, just go down to the new retail park in Kirkstall during rush hour and have a look at how many shoppers are knocking around during at that time. The traffic puts people off visiting, despite the fact that thousands of people crawl past it every day. If park and ride decreases traffic on the roads, it is hugely beneficial to the economy. Lost hours cost a lot of money.

You mention growth is not possible without further spend. Whilst there is an element of truth in the 'speculate to accumulate' argument, to put it into a LBA context, the departure hall is almost empty after 5pm every day and, outside the departure and arrival times of the based aircraft, it is probably significantly underutilised. One way to encourage growth without spending a penny on infrastructure is to attract non based airlines to use the airport, thereby utilising the periods of considerable down time. There is always a way of looking at everything and making it work better without spending money which, in turn, leads to growth.

Whilst you are right that a link would increase passenger numbers and encourage growth, doing so at the expense of the other needed improvements would be a very politically unpopular move as well as being very damaging to local communities. If there is one thing that I know from living in Leeds and spending an inordinate amount of time in my car for work, the road infrastructure - particularly around North West Leeds - is in serious need of upgrade. The money that has been mooted is for the City of Leeds and must be spent accordingly, providing benefits to all corners of the city. This is precisely why schemes have been announced in North West Leeds, North East Leeds, South East Leeds, South Leeds and West Leeds. Everyone ought to benefit to some extent. This will create and sustain jobs across the city, including building, provision of new services, new business space, housing and social benefits and the reduction of traffic. If the money were simply spent on a link to LBA, the wider benefits would not be felt for a very long time, if at all and, in the short term at least, could actually do exactly the opposite. Quite aside from anything else, handing over £121m for the purpose of giving the airport something that its owners have entirely no inclination of contributing towards would be laughable, like giving benefits to people who are simply too lazy to work.

Then there are the more practical issues. I have spent a bit of time thinking about this as I do not want to get into trouble with the statistics brigade. The point at which the line would branch off from the Harrogate line is at 133m above sea level. The point it would need to reach at the airport based on the location set out in the masterplan is 196m above sea level. The distance is 3000m, give or take a few. This means that the constant incline required would be 1 in 47. However, this would only be the case if every metre of the line climbed at the same rate. As this would not be the case, sections of the line would hit 1 in 40 or steeper. Currently, the steepest gradient on the British Railway network is the Lickey Incline, at 1 in 37. Whilst in reality the class 150 DMUs that usually traverse the route - and the Class 170s that are mooted to do so in future - can climb this sort of gradient, a banking locomotive would still have to be put on stand by just in case they got stuck. Winter weather plus that gradient is not a good mix. Then there are the capacity constraints in Leeds. With the planned increases on the Harrogate line to 4 trains per hour, further services to LBA would make it 6 per hour. These would have to fit in with the 6 trains per hour along the Airedale and Wharfedale lines at the point between Leeds Station and Canal Road. 12 trains per hour in each direction over a flat crossing into only 4 platforms at Leeds station where the minimum turnaround time is set at 10 minutes would not fit. Then someone would have to pay for the trains which would likely run at a loss. All of these things would have to be dealt with before it could be opened. It just isn't as simple as 'build the line.'

When you put absolutely everything into context and take the city region into consideration, an LBA park and ride really is the best option and, judging by the LBA ***Links to other Social Media platforms are not permitted***- page, they seem to think so too. Remember, just two years ago, a report was published into the future of transport in Leeds. At that time, LBA parkway was dismissed as an option based on cost. Two years further down the line, conditions are right for it to be built. There is a public will, a political will and available funds. Who's to say that, in another few years, LBA won't have done an excellent job in attracting passengers, started expanding the terminal and suddenly building a rail link is a good option?
 
And once Leeds has spent this 173m and has to go back to govt to pay for it, you think they'll ever say yes? this seems a now or never decision... and of course the airport welcomes the park way but you'd have to think they must also see direct link as preferential...
 
But aren't all these arguments backwards? Leeds has the cash and the freedom to do with that as it chooses... rather than wait for airport users to rise then try get govt to fund the rail link why don't we build the rail link now and watch airport users increase... a much bigger benefit to our economy than Park and ride sites...

Leedslad - you keep on commenting about Government funding a rail line! What makes you think that the UK Government will even consider funding it? Highly unlikely and almost certain to be funded locally. I have said this before but clearly you don't believe what I am telling you! I have also previously answered your other comments in that LBA do still see a direct rail link to LBA as the longer term requirement, but there is a recent report confirming heavy rail is not an option unless built underground (which frankly is not affordable for a line of this type) and a tram train is going to take quite some time given that Railtrack can't even sort out the issues between Sheffield and Rotherham. Don't forget also that a tram train isn't going to just run to the airport - it will have to run from Leeds, and Bradford and the creation of such a scheme over such an area will take many years to plan. Check out the LBA Masterplan and it still includes a station on airport ground. Nothing has changed. As I have said to you several times now, the Parkway station is a quick fix. A tram train in the future will take years of planning, the current issues in South Yorkshire resolving, and to justify it, a considerable increase in passenger numbers at LBA.

What I find slightly amusing is that following your assertion that the Park and Ride cum Parkway Station will be a White Elephant, you then suggest that a huge amount of money is ploughed into a rail link now then wait for the passengers to arrive. So, what if they don't? What if Terrorist attacks affect passenger numbers again? What if the Icelandic Volcano erupts again? What if oil prices push up jet fuel prices with a resultant increase in fares/loss of passengers? There are all sorts of 'what if's' that can turn steady growth into serious decline (as has happened twice in the past 15 years) and if that happened, what you are suggesting could result in a major White Elephant. As you will have noted already, LBA's methods are steady growth, fund projects as and when needed - not what many of us want but it does afford protection in the event of a downturn in aviation, which is a whole lot better than spending a fortune and then failing to get the money back due to unforseen circumstances. That is how companies go under. A bit like Leeds United spending a fortune in the hunt for trophies which didn't come - and we all know what happened to them! In the circumstances, the proposals make sense and have wider benefits than just the airport.
 
"Doctors against diesal" campaign launched in London this week end highlighted Leeds as a city where either a ban or a charge for bringing a diesal car in to the centre could be in place by 2018 as the legal powers now in place for the local council.
Whereas a total ban on diesal cars unlikely, Leeds will be in the forefront of curbing diesal car uses, park and Ride schemes, using bus or rail will have to be brought in at the same time as ban/charges.
 
But since when Heather do councils fund new rail lines? The govt was funding the trolley bus, surely the council would have to lobby govt to build a new branch line? where would Leeds council get funds to build such a line in future (note they have the funds now as a once in a lifetime chance).

Also it might be a quick fix, but it will be a £20m quick fix that ultimately will need demolishing if a branch line is built? Also likely is the business case will be ruined for a direct link because they'll state the parkway is sufficient and there's other priorities...

So a £70m branch now becomes a £70m plus £20m quick fix...
 
But since when Heather do councils fund new rail lines? The govt was funding the trolley bus, surely the council would have to lobby govt to build a new branch line? where would Leeds council get funds to build such a line in future (note they have the funds now as a once in a lifetime chance).

Also it might be a quick fix, but it will be a £20m quick fix that ultimately will need demolishing if a branch line is built? Also likely is the business case will be ruined for a direct link because they'll state the parkway is sufficient and there's other priorities...

So a £70m branch now becomes a £70m plus £20m quick fix...

Why on Earth would it be demolished?? It is going to be a park and ride station, permanently. Even if the tram train to LBA is built, the park and ride will remain and will in itself justify the building of the station. And it would not be just Leeds City Council that would fund it - what about the West Yorkshire Transport Authority? What about the funds that the entire area will get when we finally get control of our own transport spend (we need an elected Mayor first but it will come). It will be a joint venture, not just Leeds City Council.

As for the business case, Leeds needs a modern transit system and the loop between Horsforth and Guiseley via the airport and quite possibly Yeadon will just be a part of a system operating around the city. A tram train isn't just going to be built in isolation to service LBA from Leeds. It will be part of a new generation transport system. Whether it happens or not in the future is dependent on a great deal more than whether this parkway station is built.
 
I could not agree more White Heather! West Yorkshire needs an integrated transport policy and the P&R schemes are part of it designed to reduce car usage into city centres and to some extent airports. Sorry to harp on about Edinburgh but in the Scottish News tonight the BBC reported the opening of the Edinburgh Gateway Railway Station costing £41m. (Allows train users to change onto the tram for the last 2 miles to the airport in comfort, undercover and using escalators and lifts as needed. !! no standing out in a bus shelter!) The reporter explained that all this was part of the project for a more "integrated transport system" in Scotland allowing travellers the freedom of being able to use various means of transport, ie tram to train all on one ticket to easily get from one place to another, saving time and money. Of course he said that Scotland was far behind London in doing all this but it would seem to me that Scotland is ahead of the game compared to Yorkshire!
 
But Heather surely if the parkway is going to be so conveniently close to the terminal then a second platform outside the terminal won't be justifiable because it would be suitable because it would be such a short distance? That seems to contradict many of the points above?

And why when no direct link has been built up to now would it become any more likely once a Parkway was site just a mile from the airport? The business case would be decimated by the existence of the parkway.

Finally a Leeds region metro system is indeed needed to cover the whole city, but it will almost certainly start with just one line being built. The best candidate is surely the Harrogate line which can alleviate Headingley, the airport and is relatively stand alone in rail traffic terms... Therefore surely a first leg of any system may well be a standalone airport link?
 
Extremely upbeat report in today's Yorkshire Post with the CEO of DSA talking about £150m rail link to the ECML and potential for 25m passengers annually. No doubt this will be dismissed by some as pie in the sky, but at least it demonstrates a vision sadly lacking at LBA with the plans for two platforms on the Harrogate line a bus ride away from the terminal. DSA is also talking about a 90 min train journey from Kings X. LBA could never obviously compete with that but they really do need to lift their sights before another serious rival for passengers grows on the doorstep
 
I used DSA for the first time this year and was mightily impressed I have to say. Throw in a direct rail connection and it suddenly becomes a lot more accessible...

As mentioned above, great to see a Yorkshire airport with some ambition and vision...
 
I must admit that when I read that Finningley was to be developed into a commercial airport I had high hopes for it. Unfortunately it stuttered into life and the loss of Ryan and Easy didn't help at all. But if we are to believe all the PR flying about at the moment in relation to a railway station on the East Coast main line that facility would probably be the catalyst for major growth there. I imagine that it would also mean serious passenger leakage from LBA which should get Bidgepoint thinking and planning.

I have only used DSA once in the early days and agree with leedslad in terms of it being a pleasant experience. A main line station would be a major boost there. I shall watch that space for developments - should they occur!
 
Yeah lets hope Bridgepoint Capital PLC have the decency to close Leeds/Bradford and sell out to Peel holdings. Then it i'll just be a matter of getting the Airlines, based operators and passengers to move everything to over to Doncaster/Sheffield. (I'm sure they can find room for Jet2 Operations)
They could also reuse the runway 32 CAT3 ILS by installing it onto the Runway 02 end, that way they would have CAT3 available on both ends of as Runway 20 already has it installed. So no more diversions to Manchester or Humberside..
Then the'll be no need for this needless Church Fenton talk, We can stop wasting tax payers money on tendered bus services (737, 747, 967 and off peak 757), No need to develop either a park & ride rail station on the Horsforth line or build the A65/A658 link road seen as Peel Group have lots of private money to play about with, which they tend to spend.
Really good thing about this plan, the road traffic situation on the A65/A658 might improve as well. That way I'm sure everyone will be happy including the local residents, Leeds City Council.

Doncaster-Sheffield Airport is the Future! "The No1 international airport for Yorkshire and the this side of the Pennines"
 
Last edited:
Leedslad

The estimated building cost of the parkway is in the region of £8m not £20m you quoted.

Just supposing Leeds City Council changed their mind on the matter and decided to plough £80m into building a direct rail link to the airport terminal stopping outside the building, what then for any future expansion or relocation of the terminal? Let's face it, the terminal building is tired and will eventually need replacing at some point in the future?
 
I agree lbaspotter. Just think of all the reduced traffic around Yeadon!!!!

I see that the issue of HS2 hasn't been brought into play here as far as DSA is concerned...ie they aren't due to get it!!!
 
lbaspotter
can i have a pint of whatever your drinking,second thoughts it may be too strong for me if it gives you night mares like that.
regards
sm1
all the best for christmas and the new year hic is it big mans round?
T
 
Leedslad

The estimated building cost of the parkway is in the region of £8m not £20m you quoted.

Just supposing Leeds City Council changed their mind on the matter and decided to plough £80m into building a direct rail link to the airport terminal stopping outside the building, what then for any future expansion or relocation of the terminal? Let's face it, the terminal building is tired and will eventually need replacing at some point in the future?
I'd not seen any estimated cost for the Parkway as yet? I'd based £20m on the most recently constructed new stations PLUS park and ride car park PLUS access road PLUS extra cost for being hard to access... just my guess though...

And of course if a terminal station were built it would be planned as part of the Masterplan so as not to conflict with future expansion...
 

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9 trips in 9 days done 70 miles walked and over 23-00 photos taken with a large number taken at 20mph or above. Heavy rain on 1 day only
5 trips done and 45 miles walked,. Also the RAF has had 4 F35B Lightning follow me yesterday and today....
My plans got altered slightly as one of the minibus companies had to cancel 3 trips and refunded me but will be getting nice discount when I rebook them.
wondering why on my "holidays" I choose to get up 2 hours earlier than when going to work. 6 trips in 6 days soon coming up with 3 more days to sort out

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