Road, Rail & Access Issues

airforced

Well-Known Member
May 5, 2010
1,108
133
North Yorkshire
York- Harrogate- Horsforth- Leeds appears to operate hourly so the Parkway station would suit anyone coming from York and beyond. There must be a number of people who live nearer to DTV airport but who have a very limited choice for holiday routes and who now opt for NCL however if getting to LBA becomes easier then coming by train via York could be very attractive. What about those in Scarborough, Whitby etc -which airport is easier for them ?

Living on the coast just to the north of Scarborough I used to use MME as my primary airport whether it was for direct flights to holiday destinations or for travels further afield on business (via AMS of course) or every now and again HUY when the 'right' flight appeared in their programme (not very often). MME has over the years become less than useless and may as well close completely. KLM are sticking with it still so a convenient link to the AMS hub is still there for those who want to use it. But neither MME or HUY could be reached with any sort of convenience by public transport which is still the case today.

I therefore started using LBA about 15 years ago but as Gray Ham says using public transport from this part of the world is nigh on impossible unless you want to stay in Leeds the night before (and possibly on the return night as well) as getting to/from LBA by public transport for the first flush of departures isn't possible. Evening returns face the same problem. Additionally, there are other factors which make traveling to and from the airport unattractive by public transport, so much so that I don't even contemplate it whatever the time of day my flights leave/arrive. They are: Travel Time - minimum 3 hours, Cost - minimum £45 each, Inconvenience - lugging cases on and off several forms of bus and train as opposed to one in and out of the car boot.

By car I allow 2 hours (never need that long) although 1½ hours is usually more than enough. It is a no contest situation I'm afraid so the new station near the airport won't be of any interest to this particular traveler. I have to admit though that were things to be different, ie more convenient and less costly, I would probably need to re-consider.
 

rmac

Well-Known Member
Jan 14, 2009
410
163
Airforced: Thanks interesting comments. A train directly into the airport is obviously the best but is expensive. Edinburgh, handling 11m, had plans to do that but in the end decided against it. The tram of course does that. However a new rail and tram station is about to open about 2 miles distant from the terminal which will allow passengers from Fife, Dundee, Perth and maybe even further afield to change there for the last leg into the airport. I would think this will prove popular. Ultimately a tram/train system into LBA would be the best, still a Parkway station is a start. Of course for many using the car if that is cost effective/affordable will always be the preferred way and that is fine.
 

Aviador

Administrator
Staff member
Subscriber
Jan 12, 2009
15,357
373
HEAD OFFICE
A parkway isn't as desirable as a direct train stopping at the airport site but it's still better than no train option at all. The council have confirmed the new Leeds Bradford Airport parkway would also serve as local station for nearby Yeadon Rawdon and Horsforth which seems sensible.

When the Department for Transport originally looked at a direct rail link to the airport I don't think they took any account of the potential for local commuters using the train. At least now, the council will be able to provide actual passenger usage statistics to the Department for Transport and the powers that be can work out the viability of a more direct option in the future if the parkway is successful.

#LBAparkway #LBAbyrail
 

leedslad

Well-Known Member
Feb 19, 2012
382
63
I think the Parkway is going to be a white elephant and will ruin any future business case for a direct link.

Too many changes of train are required and lugging bags on to presumably a bus at the end isn't desirable.

This is a poor decision and the government will use its underperformance as a reason to never fund a direct link...
 

leedslad

Well-Known Member
Feb 19, 2012
382
63
It will only work if the link to the terminal is not by bus but by some people mover such as monorail or even cable car etc...
 

rmac

Well-Known Member
Jan 14, 2009
410
163
I cannot see what is wrong with a bus as long as it is reasonably new, easy to get luggage onto, warm and free. After all we are used to short hops on the bus - we park the car in Long Stay and jump on a bus, we hire a car and get bused to the parking lot, at larger airports such as Heathrow we await a hotel bus. At Gatwick you see people all day long transferring from the South terminal to North Terminal on the Shuttle train hauling bags and cases etc.
 

Aviador

Administrator
Staff member
Subscriber
Jan 12, 2009
15,357
373
HEAD OFFICE
I think the Parkway is going to be a white elephant and will ruin any future business case for a direct link.

Too many changes of train are required and lugging bags on to presumably a bus at the end isn't desirable.

This is a poor decision and the government will use its underperformance as a reason to never fund a direct link...

I think you are missing the point. The council proposal is to serve as a park and ride for locals to use. The airport will have to provide it's own bus service to the terminal. Apperley Bridge railway station has only been open a short time and the car park is virtually full on most days. Similar services from Horsforth and Guiseley have not been watered down. The new parkway will provide extra capacity for local commuters. Even if a fixed direct service to the airport terminal was established in the future it would be likely an option for local commuters would need to remain to make it viable. A direct rail route to the airport would unlikely ever be viable without making it publicly usable to locals, the airport isn't busy enough.
 

leedslad

Well-Known Member
Feb 19, 2012
382
63
It's great it has wider benefits than just serving the airport... but surely this exercise should be about bringing the airport closer to the city in terms of journey time and thus reducing door to door journey times.

Under the parkway proposal then door to terminal rail journey times will still only be comparable to getting to Manchester for many residents... And still less convenient. As a result there's no incentive to fly from Leeds.

All the council analysis is too narrow as it looks only at 'journeys'. It is ignoring the many wider economic benefits such as increased usage of the airport versus manc...
 

jason1-11

Premium Member
Subscriber
Nov 4, 2009
596
193
51
LONDON
Country
United-Kingdom
I travelled from Burly to Wakefield recently by train and was surprised how quick it was even with a change in Leeds.


Not sure if the connections just fell right, but a station close to the Airport should definitely add options and hopefully mean in the future that more Wakefield based passengers may consider Leeds as opposed to Manchester or Robin Hood Airport.
 

rmac

Well-Known Member
Jan 14, 2009
410
163
Surely the cost to get to LBA via the Parkway would be much less than going all the way to MAN - is that not an incentive?
 

Aviador

Administrator
Staff member
Subscriber
Jan 12, 2009
15,357
373
HEAD OFFICE
It's great it has wider benefits than just serving the airport... but surely this exercise should be about bringing the airport closer to the city in terms of journey time and thus reducing door to door journey times.

Under the parkway proposal then door to terminal rail journey times will still only be comparable to getting to Manchester for many residents... And still less convenient. As a result there's no incentive to fly from Leeds.

All the council analysis is too narrow as it looks only at 'journeys'. It is ignoring the many wider economic benefits such as increased usage of the airport versus manc...

I am sure Leeds City Council are fully aware of the wider economic benefits of having a 'direct' rail link to the airport. The problem has always and will always be the cost of implementing such a project.

On it's own the airport doesn't handle sufficient passenger numbers to make a direct route viable. As I said previously, a parkway which is open for local people to use will handle significantly more passengers than the DfT projection figures of a direct link to the airport site. The figures will make a case for a direct fixed route to the terminal more attractive in the future, but even then provision for public access will need to be seriously considered if it is to be viable.

You say you don't think the proposed parkway will be convenient enough to get people using it? Journey times from Leeds to Horsforth will be around 12 minutes. A bus is the most likely option for the remaining part of the journey to the terminal and this is likely to take around a further 5 minutes. So Leeds to the airport terminal in under 20 minutes is indisputably very good?

I think to summarise, I share your sentiments in that we would all love to see a direct rail route to the airport but the government has not been forthcoming with money to build such a link. These days the government strongly favours money from the private sector over use of public money. The owners of Leeds Bradford Airport, Bridgepoint would be the main beneficiary of a direct rail link to the airport. So far as we are aware Bridgepoint have not brought any money to the table to put towards a direct rail link so it's equally understandable why the council chooses not to pay for a direct rail link.

#LBAraillink #railtoLBA #LBAparkway
 

leedslad

Well-Known Member
Feb 19, 2012
382
63
Surely the cost to get to LBA via the Parkway would be much less than going all the way to MAN - is that not an incentive?
I'd agree if the airfares weren't frequently far cheaper from Manc... KLM being one of the worst offenders and it's a longer flight?!
 

leedslad

Well-Known Member
Feb 19, 2012
382
63
But the government HAS for once been forthcoming with the money and this is a once in a generation chance to achieve the link. Does anyone seriously believe the government will fund a future direct link when the Parkway will diminish the ROI of the direct branch?

Even if a twenty minute journey is possible that doesn't account for the wait time of the bus and likely time to change trains at Leeds. Nor does it account for the many people like me that take one look at a complicated bus/train/train journey and opt for the car...

More likely is this

Leave the terminal, ten minute wait for bus to depart, five minute journey to parkway, arrive at parkway ten mins early, fifteen minute journey to Leeds, fifteen minute wait time to change trains, ten minute local train home.

Over an hour to reach suburban train station from terminal...
 

Tarn Spotter

Well-Known Member
Nov 5, 2012
1,083
113
Aviador is right in highlighting the benefit of a park and ride scheme at this station for local commuter traffic. Its impossible to park around any of the three local stations (greengates, Horsforth and guiseley) The morrisons car park is full of commuter traffic as well, as are all the surrounding streets.
You can justify the cost of this station just on commuter traffic alone and also make a good case for option A of the link road. Having a station at LBA will never be justified on airport users only. Leeds has opted to charge diesal car owners to enter the city centre from 2018, offering a carrot of at least one park and ride station in years to come will sweeten this legislation.
I am not sure how many long stay bays at LBA airport, but the commuter park needs to be at least 2000 spaces on its own and the 2030 airport plan showed in its 2024 layout drawings the parkway entry points to the airport, basically through the long stay car park. This new station may make the two new car parks outlined obsolete and free up basically all the existing airport parking.
We really now need to know where they intend to put the station.
 

White Heather

Well-Known Member
Jan 14, 2009
5,814
255
67
Leeds
I think the Parkway is going to be a white elephant and will ruin any future business case for a direct link.

Too many changes of train are required and lugging bags on to presumably a bus at the end isn't desirable.

This is a poor decision and the government will use its underperformance as a reason to never fund a direct link...

Amazing isn't it that several years of research and reports, that support a parkway station option are still considered to be a poor decision by our resident experts. The reasons put forward for this don't stack up. There are many major airports around the world where, even when getting off a direct train into the airport, there is a requirement to transfer to a shuttle bus to get to the terminal required. It won't be a white elephant because even if the numbers to LBA were small in the early stages, the park and ride will be very useful - something that doesn't exist in NW Leeds. The negativity continues to astound me. Talk about glass half empty. And, incidentally, it won't be the Government that funds a rail link.
 

White Heather

Well-Known Member
Jan 14, 2009
5,814
255
67
Leeds
Where would the parkway station be located and how far from the airport.

Just at the SW end of the Bramhope Tunnel apparently, which is less than a mile from the terminal. A link road will need to be built from there to the terminal but the lower car parks at LBA are less than half a mile from the proposed station. It will be very easy to extend the car park shuttle buses from those, down to the parkway station. The biggest issue is that at this point the railway is in a deep cutting, so they may need to move the station further towards Horsforth, outside of the cutting - or there will be a requirement to install something to assist passengers get up from platform level to the bus/park and ride, which will be at a higher level. That in itself would make the station more expensive than it would otherwise have been as there will be a need for either lifts or escalators, or at the very least, wheelchair friendly ramps, on both platforms and a bridge across the line. Passengers arriving on the Leeds bound platform will need to cross the line to get to the pick up point. I believe East Midlands has a parkway station so this won't be anything unique.
 

whoshotjimmi

Active Member
Nov 21, 2010
650
43
Leeds
Just at the SW end of the Bramhope Tunnel apparently, which is less than a mile from the terminal. A link road will need to be built from there to the terminal but the lower car parks at LBA are less than half a mile from the proposed station. It will be very easy to extend the car park shuttle buses from those, down to the parkway station. The biggest issue is that at this point the railway is in a deep cutting, so they may need to move the station further towards Horsforth, outside of the cutting - or there will be a requirement to install something to assist passengers get up from platform level to the bus/park and ride, which will be at a higher level. That in itself would make the station more expensive than it would otherwise have been as there will be a need for either lifts or escalators, or at the very least, wheelchair friendly ramps, on both platforms and a bridge across the line. Passengers arriving on the Leeds bound platform will need to cross the line to get to the pick up point. I believe East Midlands has a parkway station so this won't be anything unique.


I think the negativity is borne out of decades of failure by Leeds City Council to push through anything remotely useful with regards to a well connected, fast, efficient and cost effective public transport system. After all, White Heather, you have been quite negative yourself about the bus plans.

I have long since argued that the Harrogate line is the key to all future modernisation of the transport system in the Leeds City Region as conversion to light rail would be fabulously sensible and provide a cheap and frequent mass transit system with the minimum of work and cost, along the same principle as the early stages of Metrolink. This would then be the catalyst for further conversion and new build light rail in Leeds and the surrounding area which would undoubtedly include a spur to the terminal building with an additional stop in the car park somewhere, possibly eliminating the need for buses which will cost an arm and a leg to run anyway. The main blockers to any attempt to consider this is the Harrogate Chamber Of Commerce who will not give up their beloved one train a day to London, even though rerouting via York would see their service improve both in terms of frequency and speed, as well as improving connections between Harrogate and York, which are diabolical. Until that position changes, we are stuck with what we have. At the very least, a new station promising all that has been promised is good news for the local area and will indeed make LBA more attractive to those travelling from further away.

Since you mention it, White Heather, what we could do with in this situation are some figures from East Midlands parkway, Southampton parkway and Liverpool South Parkway - all of which are significantly further from the terminal building than our proposal and include (at Liverpool and East Midlands) a paid bus journey between station and airport - to show us the potential benefits of the station to LBA.
 

Aviador

Administrator
Staff member
Subscriber
Jan 12, 2009
15,357
373
HEAD OFFICE
White Heather made a good point about airports which have on site stations often requiring some kind of onward transfers to terminals.

Has anyone ever timed the walk from the Manchester airport station to any of the terminals?

As nice as it would be to have a station at the airport I just think the proposed parkway is the best option for LBA right now.
 

White Heather

Well-Known Member
Jan 14, 2009
5,814
255
67
Leeds
I think the negativity is borne out of decades of failure by Leeds City Council to push through anything remotely useful with regards to a well connected, fast, efficient and cost effective public transport system. After all, White Heather, you have been quite negative yourself about the bus plans.

I have long since argued that the Harrogate line is the key to all future modernisation of the transport system in the Leeds City Region as conversion to light rail would be fabulously sensible and provide a cheap and frequent mass transit system with the minimum of work and cost, along the same principle as the early stages of Metrolink. This would then be the catalyst for further conversion and new build light rail in Leeds and the surrounding area which would undoubtedly include a spur to the terminal building with an additional stop in the car park somewhere, possibly eliminating the need for buses which will cost an arm and a leg to run anyway. The main blockers to any attempt to consider this is the Harrogate Chamber Of Commerce who will not give up their beloved one train a day to London, even though rerouting via York would see their service improve both in terms of frequency and speed, as well as improving connections between Harrogate and York, which are diabolical. Until that position changes, we are stuck with what we have. At the very least, a new station promising all that has been promised is good news for the local area and will indeed make LBA more attractive to those travelling from further away.

Since you mention it, White Heather, what we could do with in this situation are some figures from East Midlands parkway, Southampton parkway and Liverpool South Parkway - all of which are significantly further from the terminal building than our proposal and include (at Liverpool and East Midlands) a paid bus journey between station and airport - to show us the potential benefits of the station to LBA.


I would agree with you on your last point, but disagree on your allegation I have been negative about bus plans. Which bus plans are you talking about? I am entirely positive about the use of car park shuttle buses to go to the parkways station. I have campaigned with the airport previously to try and get a shuttle bus from Horsforth and I have been positive about bus routes into LBA -although I admit that they are not my main focus of attention. The past is the past - and whilst those of us old enough to remember the past failings might well have grounds to 'believe it when we see it' I still think that a healthy dose of realism is needed by some. The negativity just seems to have become a habit. Even when we get good news, it isn't seen as good enough. The fact that the alternatives are simply not affordable seems irrelevant. I wouldn't mind betting that if we got a new terminal, on site rail link, and a longer runway, we would still then find people complaining that we should be building a new £5b airport somewhere else!
 
Top Bottom
  AdBlock Detected
Sure, ad-blocking software does a great job at blocking ads, but it also blocks some useful and important features of our website. For the best possible site experience please take a moment to disable your AdBlocker.