Leeds Bradford: Airport Road, Rail & Access Issues

  • Thread starter Thread starter Aviador
  • Start date Start date
  • Tagged users Tagged users None
Use this prefix for new threads for Leeds Bradford Airport
But the government HAS for once been forthcoming with the money and this is a once in a generation chance to achieve the link. Does anyone seriously believe the government will fund a future direct link when the Parkway will diminish the ROI of the direct branch?



Leave the terminal, ten minute wait for bus to depart, five minute journey to parkway, arrive at parkway ten mins early, fifteen minute journey to Leeds, fifteen minute wait time to change trains, ten minute local train home.

Over an hour to reach suburban train station from terminal...

May I quote another example for comparison. I live on the East Coast without a direct train link to Leeds. Two weeks ago I travelled home by bus/train and it took me 3 hours. Normal journey by car takes 2 hours.
I was fortunate that my flight times allowed this, when it usually doesn't, but I will definitely use the train/bus again if possible.
The best feeling was not having to drive home after 2 overnight flights.

We can discuss this for "ever and a day" but in the end it is down to personal choice.
 
I think it is a reasonable assumption that the airport link road will be Option 1, as it has to be to provide a road link to the proposed park and ride. For me, the park and ride alone makes the building of the station worthwhile, but the fact it can double up as an LBA Parkway Station, putting the airport on the map as far as rail bookings are concerned (yes I know it already appears but you can't actually book a train there so obviously it shouldn't be), is a bonus. I don't think anyone at LBA or in the council see this as the long term solution and LBA and the Council will be looking towards a tram train to the airport in the future as part of a rapid transit system for the future. But in the not too distant future, as a package, we get the new link road, new station, park and ride, more trains, LBA on the rail map and the option, for those that want it, to travel to LBA on the train via either Leeds or Harrogate with a short shuttle bus hop when they get there - which is no different to what they do now when they go to MAN in their cars, or even go to LBA and park in one of the car parks. What is the difference? Car park or rail station you still need a a shuttle bus!!
 
I would agree with you on your last point, but disagree on your allegation I have been negative about bus plans. Which bus plans are you talking about?

Good question and one that perhaps the Government might be in a position to answer, given they pulled the plug on our Supertram after millions had been spent on planning for it and up front road alterations to accommodate it. Then they tell us to get something cheaper - so we end up with a fairly useless trolley bus, which the Government cans again. Then they tell us we can keep the money but we have to spend it by 2021 - which means it cannot be put towards any meaningful new generation transport scheme. So from what I have read today - all we will get is more bus lanes (deep joy!), 300 new low emission buses over the next 10 years, another park and ride at Stourton, and various other rather cosmetic 'improvements' all relating to bus useage. Hardly what the City needs.

Leeds Council don't help though - they seem to have a knack of choosing a scheme that is too expensive - although I have to say that Sheffield did very much the same 20 years ago and they got the money! Over the years, I don't think Leeds has ever really had a fair deal when compared to others. You have to wonder how Edinburgh, Nottingham, Wolverhampton, Manchester, Sheffield and even Croydon got tram systems yet the 3rd largest city in the UK can't get anything remotely modern. Our only hope really seems to be a tram train system but I am not holding my breath.


This bus plan.

However we feel about buses (and I am scathingly critical of them in general, particularly in Leeds), there is absolutely no doubt that the Elland Road Park and Ride has been an enormous success. With that in mind, it is exactly what the city needs. I would be happier if some of the money went towards developing a pay system like the one that exists in London which would make them cheaper and more accessible (MCard is NOT the answer) as well as integrating the different companies and modes of transport. It would also reduce dwell times, making buses faster and causing less local pollution. All in good time for that one though.

I think that a £180m plan to improve bus usage should not be sniffed at just because it is not as much as was hoped for. Much in the same way that a small extension to the departure lounge should not be sniffed at or the introduction of a parkway station.
 
Park and Ride is an expensive way to achieve small gains.

Even if Elland Road were full every day with 800 commuters then...

That's still 800 car journeys as far as Elland Road

If an average double decker conservatively takes 50, then it's just 16 bus fulls per day.

Is incredibly inefficient if buses run to and from it all day when 80% of demand will be rush hour

Is probably only equivalent to 4 small train fulls.

Offers no journey time saving to commuters after knocking off parking time and bus boarding

Is only attractive when traffic is horrendous or parking too expensive (ie as a last resort)
 
I disagree. Not everybody is going to look at the park and ride in quite the detail that you are. Most people will not be timing the time it takes to board a bus on the last leg of the journey. Most people will just look the time it takes to get from A to B.

Trains are far more reliable than alternative public transport. The time it takes to get from A to B will be far more constant than by car and also, commuters wishing to use the new station won't give a hoot about airport related passengers. It will just be seen as park and be in Leeds within 15 minutes.

The new station will be in the heart of a commuter belt between Bramhope, Horsforth, Rawdon and Yeadon. Whether or not it is successful for the airport is a good question but I am sure it will be a success for commuters.
 
And yet it has been an enormous success.

There is a huge demand for park and ride in Leeds. When the car park at New Pudsey station doubled in size, it was full within a week. There are now plans to increase it in size again. Apperley Bridge car par is almost always full and probably won't be long before it is over capacity. The Elland Road park and ride site is being expanded to cope with demand. In my humble opinion, the size of the gain is irrelevant. They may not be the all encompassing local transport network we all want and, in reality, require but they are improvements nonetheless. If you are saying 800 commuters use Elland Road, that's 800 less car journeys into the city centre. Do that at 10 WELL CHOSEN locations around the city (King Lane in Alwoodley is not a good example) and you would suddenly have 8,000 less car journeys into the centre of Leeds.

Though I wasn't as wholeheartedly in agreement with your point of view, Leedslad, I did, until your last post at least, understand why you would say what you were saying. Now you have said that park and ride is inefficient to use all day as 80% of the journeys are at peak times, you have lost my support. This is true of any transport system anywhere in the world and, regardless of how much money was spent or how good the system was, 80% of the journeys would take place at peak times. By that logic, there is no point in spending money to improve anything as there will be no demand outside peak times. By that logic, all trains and buses should stop running outside the hours of 6-10 and 3-7.

Here it is in Black and White for you.

An LBA parkway station will benefit commuters to Harrogate (where the traffic is horrendous), commuters to Leeds (where the traffic is horrendous), local residents in the Horsforth/Cookridge area (where the traffic is horrendous), passengers to and from LBA (where the traffic is horrendous) and it is being paid for using public funds whilst tapping into an already mooted improvement in rail services by Arriva and, potentially, Virgin. For you to have your LBA station (which will only benefit LBA), you will have to hope that a private company will stump up £80+m or so to build the line and station and another goodness knows how much to operate the extra trains, which would likely have a half an hour frequency rather than a possible 15 minute frequency and hope that rail technology has advanced significantly that trains can climb that sort of gradient, all whilst remembering that Glasgow, with 9 million ppa, had their mooted rail link cancelled, Manchester only got a rail link once they hit 15 million ppa, Heathrow only got a rail link when it was knocking on the door of 40 million ppa and the likes of Doncaster won't even have a station considered despite the fact the line runs directly past the airport. When you factor in that the airport company won't even upgrade its own terminal for that sort of money, you start to see how far away this vision is.
 
Last edited:
will the local road network be able to cope with all the extra cars if and when the new park and ride gets built??
sm1
 
It will need the new link road and changes to local roads as well. There is a huge volume of commuter traffic, I think 6k per hr on the A65, and I understand a similar number on the A660 and surrounding roads..
If just 10% of commuter traffic taken off the road thats 2k additional passengers in a 2 hours segment.
My home city of York commenced Park and Ride in 1990 and now has I think 5k spaces (no train links), Leeds must be able to support 20k minimum
 
Sorry don't get me wrong train based Park and Ride I'd consider using myself, and ultimately the parkway site might prove an excellent Park and ride facility. far less useful as a way of reaching the airport.

Less keen on bus Park and ride for the reasons in my last post... yes maybe ten Park and ride sites might take 8k cars off the city centre roads, but at £10m per site is very expensive per commuter. It also looks in 8k car journeys to get to the car park site!
 
Is it only me that finds it quite amusing that this thread has quite quickly meandered from being one about getting a rail link to the airport, with all the benefits that would hypothetically bring to LBA, to one that is focusing on the benefits of a Park and Ride station?

I think not, as the majority of people flying from the airport find travelling there by public transport to be inconvenient (or impossible) and far too expensive. For an LBA station, of whatever type, to be successful there would need to be some major structural changes to the public transport infrastructure which isn't going to happen in my lifetime due to the relatively small numbers using the airport. I can't see that changing either because of the well-known and often discussed problems associated with the airports location.

By all means lobby for a Park and Ride which no doubt would serve the local community well but try not to mucky the waters by suggesting it would be some sort of nirvana for the airport or those travelling to it. Bridgepoint have done well, and will continue to do well I imagine, by steadfastly refusing to be drawn into any discussions about funding for this particular project which will only bring a marginal benefit to them.

The local politicians may well join in this charade as they are probably just as keen as the locals to improve their transport infrastructure as well as taking cars out of the city centre and may think that by citing the benefits to the airport more weight will be added to the rail/shuttle argument.
 
Manchester only got a rail link once they hit 15 million ppa

Think the planning permission came when MAN was around 12 million passengers in 1992, with it opening in 1993. Though the airport had been pressing for it for some time prior to the permission being granted.
 
Think the planning permission came when MAN was around 12 million passengers in 1992, with it opening in 1993. Though the airport had been pressing for it for some time prior to the permission being granted.

You're quite right. I should have known the statistics police would be on patrol. I was using a vague, rounded out figure to make a point but have been caught out like this before so should have known better.

For the sake of absolute accuracy, Manchester Airport station opened in 1993 when throughput was 13,099,074. Heathrow Express opened in 1998 when throughput was 60,683,988.

My point remains that LBA, with its 2015 figure of 3,455,445 has a long way to go before the ESTIMATED spend of £80+million comes close to being justifiable.

Is it only me that finds it quite amusing that this thread has quite quickly meandered from being one about getting a rail link to the airport, with all the benefits that would hypothetically bring to LBA, to one that is focusing on the benefits of a Park and Ride station?

I would suspect that focus has shifted because the proposal from Leeds City Council is to build a park and ride station and this has wider implications on the community, many of which will have to be resolved before this idea can even begin to be planned properly. For it to be built at all and start providing any benefits to LBA (however small you believe these will be), the road infrastructure will have to be upgraded and the local community (headed by the fabulously astute politician but magnificently incapable realist, Greg Mulholland) will have to have its say.

Considering the lack of political will of the Lib Dem MP to work closely with the Labour led Leeds City Council, the only way this will gain any traction whatsoever is if it is part of a city wide programme of improvements that can be pushed through with a majority vote. This includes the benefit of park and ride, in various locations (some mooted to be bus, some rail) to the city of Leeds. Furthermore, the views of Harrogate and Bradford, not to mention Northern Trains, Yorkshire Tiger, Virgin East Coast, Keighley Bus Company, First Leeds and the various quangos with their toe dipped in will all have to be taken into consideration as the proposals will affect them too.

I apologise, airforced, if that is the main issue here and that the presence of LBA is somewhat circumstantial to the whole idea. The fact that it has been proposed at all is a step in the right direction and if highlighting the benefits of a park and ride station moves the whole thing forwards for LBA, so be it.
 
The principal reason for my comment was the sentence after the passenger stat. Stansted got it's railway station opened in 1991 when their throughput was just 1.7 million passengers. The cost for that was £44 million in 1991 which is roughly £66 million in today's money. Yes the cost/benefit analysis has to stack up - at the moment the MAN railway station is standing at 3.6 million passengers (15% total pax) and STN railway station in 4.5 million passengers (20% total pax). Based on those percentages, would getting 750,000 passengers a year to use a LBA station be worth spending £80 million on?
 
This bus plan.

However we feel about buses (and I am scathingly critical of them in general, particularly in Leeds), there is absolutely no doubt that the Elland Road Park and Ride has been an enormous success. With that in mind, it is exactly what the city needs. I would be happier if some of the money went towards developing a pay system like the one that exists in London which would make them cheaper and more accessible (MCard is NOT the answer) as well as integrating the different companies and modes of transport. It would also reduce dwell times, making buses faster and causing less local pollution. All in good time for that one though.

I think that a £180m plan to improve bus usage should not be sniffed at just because it is not as much as was hoped for. Much in the same way that a small extension to the departure lounge should not be sniffed at or the introduction of a parkway station.

Sorry but I assumed that since we were talking about the airport, your comment was that I was negative about buses to the airport, which I am not. Nor am I negative about a new bus fleet with lower emissions and I have no problem either with Park and Rides. As a driver though, bus lanes, particularly full time ones, are a pain and my annoyance is that the Government have had a major impact in Leeds by turning down Supertram (and clearly then diverting the funds to Edinburgh instead - strange that the MP who said no to Leeds was an MP for that city isn't it?), encouraging something 'cheaper', then turning down the ill conceived trolley bus too. Meanwhile other cities and even towns were still building tram systems. They have let us keep the money but then put a time limit on it which forces the Council etc to spend on buses, which whilst they are welcomed, are not the rapid transit system Leeds requires. The new buses, frankly, would have come anyway as First replaces older vehicles in its fleet but these new buses have been added in to the package to make it look better than it really is.

For me - the parkway station is the highlight and I do not agree at all that it will be a White Elephant, or of limited use for access to the airport. As I have pointed out, arrive at MAN in your car, and you have to get on a bus to reach the terminal, as you do at many other larger airports. Arrive by train too at many large airports and you need a shuttle bus to your terminal - luggage and all. Getting on a bus and travelling less than a mile up to the terminal is no big deal if you genuinely want to get to the airport by public transport rather than by car.
 
Last edited:
The Stansted situation was very different in so far as it's development was a London City Region plan to increase air capacity in the South East of England at a time when it was desperately needed and the rail link was a part of the overall plan. You'd have to say that, in this case and in hindsight, the rail link has been an overwhelming success, as has the airport in general. Whichever way we look at it and however successful an LBA rail link would be, LBA is never going to be regularly transporting upwards of 20 million passengers. As a direct comparison, you'd have to leave out Stansted for the reasons above.

Manchester would be more comparable, however, services from the outset ran directly to towns and cities outside Manchester, thereby increasing the attractiveness of the link. This would not be the case at LBA. It is also worth considering that at £66million in today's money with a 13million ppa, the cost per passenger of building the link was £5.08 per passenger - something the airport probably recouped in fees alone at the time. Low cost airlines are now much more of a mainstay, average fares have reduced and airports have to offer wildly attractive incentives for them to come at all, there is probably very little money to be made from passenger and landing fees. At £80million with 3.5million passengers, the cost per passenger would be £23.

In the ten years after opening, Manchester airport increased from 13 million to about 19 million - an increase of 46%. Assuming, as the absolute best case scenario, that the percentage increase would be the same following opening of a rail link to LBA, this would account for a ten year increase to just over 5 million passengers per annum. Is that worth £80million? Considering it would still be well short of the figure Manchester needed to have theirs approved and for Glasgow to have theirs cancelled, one would assume not.

I then return to the likes of Southampton, East Midlands and, in particular, Liverpool parkways. Liverpool parkway is of particular interest as the declining fortunes of Liverpool airport and increases in LBA throughput have brought them closer together. LSP had many issues to begin with as train services did not call there and buses were not routed through. Once a regular rail and bus service was introduced, passenger numbers shot up, despite the reduction in overall passengers through Liverpool airport. Again, it should be noted that one can directly get a train to Liverpool South Parkway from all over Central England - something that will not be possible to LBA parkway.

I am finding it difficult to locate accurate figures for passengers travelling to Liverpool Airport from the parkway but the fact that the numbers increased by 1million ppa once long distance services were introduced should speak volumes.

EDIT: Forgot to mention that a tram train link was proposed from the Parkway to Liverpool airport but it was shelved last month on the basis of cost and not enough passengers, providing even more comparison with LBA.
 
Last edited:
Sorry but I assumed that since we were talking about the airport, your comment was that I was negative about buses to the airport, which I am not. Nor am I negative about a new bus fleet with lower emissions and I have no problem either with Park and Rides. As a driver though, bus lanes, particularly full time ones, are a pain and my annoyance is that the Government have had a major impact in Leeds by turning down Supertram (and clearly then diverting the funds to Edinburgh instead - strange that the MP who said no to Leeds was an MP for that city isn't it?), encouraging something 'cheaper', then turning down the ill conceived trolley bus too. Meanwhile other cities and even towns were still building tram systems.

Very true but, as I have alluded to before, Metrolink would be nothing without having made that difficult first decision to close the lines to Bury and Altrincham and convert them to light rail - a decision made easier by the whole line being within Greater Manchester, affording the local authority a bit more control. Similar conversion of the Harrogate line would be the catalyst for all of the same type of infrastructure improvements in Leeds but the fact that Harrogate operates separately to West Yorkshire is a major stumbling block as, I'm sure, they would not allow it.
 
But aren't all these arguments backwards? Leeds has the cash and the freedom to do with that as it chooses... rather than wait for airport users to rise then try get govt to fund the rail link why don't we build the rail link now and watch airport users increase... a much bigger benefit to our economy than Park and ride sites...

Also if the rail link achieved 750k passengers then per working day that is approx 3k passengers daily.

For the £70m we could build circa 7 Park and ride sites with say 800 spaces. If full every working day that's 1.4m passengers. Yes that may be double but consider this... every single one of those will still have to drive to the park and ride site and park and ride has no benefit to the economy. growth is not possible either without further spend. an airport link could help increase airport passengers and boost the economy and can grow with the airport... plus all journeys take a car off the road completely
 
Connectivity is not the only precursor to growth, though it is important. Traffic and lack of transport options also hampers growth. For evidence of this, just go down to the new retail park in Kirkstall during rush hour and have a look at how many shoppers are knocking around during at that time. The traffic puts people off visiting, despite the fact that thousands of people crawl past it every day. If park and ride decreases traffic on the roads, it is hugely beneficial to the economy. Lost hours cost a lot of money.

You mention growth is not possible without further spend. Whilst there is an element of truth in the 'speculate to accumulate' argument, to put it into a LBA context, the departure hall is almost empty after 5pm every day and, outside the departure and arrival times of the based aircraft, it is probably significantly underutilised. One way to encourage growth without spending a penny on infrastructure is to attract non based airlines to use the airport, thereby utilising the periods of considerable down time. There is always a way of looking at everything and making it work better without spending money which, in turn, leads to growth.

Whilst you are right that a link would increase passenger numbers and encourage growth, doing so at the expense of the other needed improvements would be a very politically unpopular move as well as being very damaging to local communities. If there is one thing that I know from living in Leeds and spending an inordinate amount of time in my car for work, the road infrastructure - particularly around North West Leeds - is in serious need of upgrade. The money that has been mooted is for the City of Leeds and must be spent accordingly, providing benefits to all corners of the city. This is precisely why schemes have been announced in North West Leeds, North East Leeds, South East Leeds, South Leeds and West Leeds. Everyone ought to benefit to some extent. This will create and sustain jobs across the city, including building, provision of new services, new business space, housing and social benefits and the reduction of traffic. If the money were simply spent on a link to LBA, the wider benefits would not be felt for a very long time, if at all and, in the short term at least, could actually do exactly the opposite. Quite aside from anything else, handing over £121m for the purpose of giving the airport something that its owners have entirely no inclination of contributing towards would be laughable, like giving benefits to people who are simply too lazy to work.

Then there are the more practical issues. I have spent a bit of time thinking about this as I do not want to get into trouble with the statistics brigade. The point at which the line would branch off from the Harrogate line is at 133m above sea level. The point it would need to reach at the airport based on the location set out in the masterplan is 196m above sea level. The distance is 3000m, give or take a few. This means that the constant incline required would be 1 in 47. However, this would only be the case if every metre of the line climbed at the same rate. As this would not be the case, sections of the line would hit 1 in 40 or steeper. Currently, the steepest gradient on the British Railway network is the Lickey Incline, at 1 in 37. Whilst in reality the class 150 DMUs that usually traverse the route - and the Class 170s that are mooted to do so in future - can climb this sort of gradient, a banking locomotive would still have to be put on stand by just in case they got stuck. Winter weather plus that gradient is not a good mix. Then there are the capacity constraints in Leeds. With the planned increases on the Harrogate line to 4 trains per hour, further services to LBA would make it 6 per hour. These would have to fit in with the 6 trains per hour along the Airedale and Wharfedale lines at the point between Leeds Station and Canal Road. 12 trains per hour in each direction over a flat crossing into only 4 platforms at Leeds station where the minimum turnaround time is set at 10 minutes would not fit. Then someone would have to pay for the trains which would likely run at a loss. All of these things would have to be dealt with before it could be opened. It just isn't as simple as 'build the line.'

When you put absolutely everything into context and take the city region into consideration, an LBA park and ride really is the best option and, judging by the LBA facebook page, they seem to think so too. Remember, just two years ago, a report was published into the future of transport in Leeds. At that time, LBA parkway was dismissed as an option based on cost. Two years further down the line, conditions are right for it to be built. There is a public will, a political will and available funds. Who's to say that, in another few years, LBA won't have done an excellent job in attracting passengers, started expanding the terminal and suddenly building a rail link is a good option?
 
And once Leeds has spent this 173m and has to go back to govt to pay for it, you think they'll ever say yes? this seems a now or never decision... and of course the airport welcomes the park way but you'd have to think they must also see direct link as preferential...
 
But aren't all these arguments backwards? Leeds has the cash and the freedom to do with that as it chooses... rather than wait for airport users to rise then try get govt to fund the rail link why don't we build the rail link now and watch airport users increase... a much bigger benefit to our economy than Park and ride sites...

Leedslad - you keep on commenting about Government funding a rail line! What makes you think that the UK Government will even consider funding it? Highly unlikely and almost certain to be funded locally. I have said this before but clearly you don't believe what I am telling you! I have also previously answered your other comments in that LBA do still see a direct rail link to LBA as the longer term requirement, but there is a recent report confirming heavy rail is not an option unless built underground (which frankly is not affordable for a line of this type) and a tram train is going to take quite some time given that Railtrack can't even sort out the issues between Sheffield and Rotherham. Don't forget also that a tram train isn't going to just run to the airport - it will have to run from Leeds, and Bradford and the creation of such a scheme over such an area will take many years to plan. Check out the LBA Masterplan and it still includes a station on airport ground. Nothing has changed. As I have said to you several times now, the Parkway station is a quick fix. A tram train in the future will take years of planning, the current issues in South Yorkshire resolving, and to justify it, a considerable increase in passenger numbers at LBA.

What I find slightly amusing is that following your assertion that the Park and Ride cum Parkway Station will be a White Elephant, you then suggest that a huge amount of money is ploughed into a rail link now then wait for the passengers to arrive. So, what if they don't? What if Terrorist attacks affect passenger numbers again? What if the Icelandic Volcano erupts again? What if oil prices push up jet fuel prices with a resultant increase in fares/loss of passengers? There are all sorts of 'what if's' that can turn steady growth into serious decline (as has happened twice in the past 15 years) and if that happened, what you are suggesting could result in a major White Elephant. As you will have noted already, LBA's methods are steady growth, fund projects as and when needed - not what many of us want but it does afford protection in the event of a downturn in aviation, which is a whole lot better than spending a fortune and then failing to get the money back due to unforseen circumstances. That is how companies go under. A bit like Leeds United spending a fortune in the hunt for trophies which didn't come - and we all know what happened to them! In the circumstances, the proposals make sense and have wider benefits than just the airport.
 

Remove Advertisements

Subscribe to help support your favourite forum and in return we'll remove all our advertisements. Your contribution will help to pay for things like site maintenance, domain name renewals and annual server charges.



Forums4aiports
Subscribe

Heads Up!

For some weird reason, my days off work tend to involve being out of my flat by 5am and not getting back until 10pm. Back to work and the regular "fix" of 7.40am to 7.15pm hours
Heatwave Mk2 next week?
Some explosive weather build-ups currently in the North of England. What is it like where you are?
LBA: B737-300 G-GDFK empty down to Paris at 16:15 to operate the return LS268 back to Leeds 20:00 ETA where it will then operate the delayed LS265 to Malaga 20:40ETD
LBA: Albastar B737-800 EC-MUB positioning in tommorow afternoon from Gatwick 15:45 to operate a charter to Lourdes/Tarbes on Friday afternoon 14:00 AP7721 STC
I don't believe I am quite covering enough roles at work. Its now 4 on a bad day, 5 on a good day and there is scope for a 6th and 7th role. Still on minimum pay but had the biggest payrise in the company,

Trending Hashtags

Advertisement

Back
Top Bottom
  AdBlock Detected
Sure, ad-blocking software does a great job at blocking ads, but it also blocks some useful and important features of our website. For the best possible site experience please take a moment to disable your AdBlocker.