Hainan Airlines

[User001]

Thanks Ray,

I didn't mean to sound so harsh, but, the man winds me up no end, and to be fair, you were almost egging him on by the style of response. At the end of the day, this man represents BHX and Birmingham (isn't he some form of ambassador for something in Birmigham), so equally, if you too feel his rantings are a tad OTT, surely you should feel embarrassed too?

At the end of the day, Im not going to draw into a debate with him on Twitter, as, firstly, he is likely to just block me anyway if I do ask, and, given I'm not party to the level of subsidy given to airlines, (I agree they are given to all airlines), but, I'm not the public head of business making such bold claims.

 

[Aviador]

As per one of my previous posts on this thread, I believe flights between Birmingham and China would have proved more productive on a city vs city basis because of the established manufacturing base in the Midlands region. Manchester on the other hand has excellent road and rail connections throughout the North of England which is probably why Manchester airport was chosen over Birmingham. I'm not convinced Manchester could sustain flights to China at this moment in time without it's extended catchment areas which all intense and purpose includes cities like Birmingham, but also other large cities in the North of England such as Leeds, Liverpool, Sheffield, Newcastle and Hull.

 

[User001]

On a city by city basis, Manchester has some of the largest Chinese student populations in the country. I read that something like 1/3 of all Chinese students attend Manchester universities. It's Chinese population is one of the largest in the UK. Students need to get here some how, and a lot like to go home on holidays. While not a frequent flow, it's a market to tap into.

Of course, as you say, airports do not serve purely just the city attached, but, the catchment they fall in. In a way you contradicted yourself too. You compared Manchester as a city to the Midlands as a region. There are parts of the Midlands further from BHX than Liverpool is to MAN, so, to compare a city region to a geographical region is slightly unfair and also will without doubt skew the figures.

There is equally a lot of Chinese trade links in the North West and Yorkshire. Not as much as the Midlands, but, a lot. Anecdotally, my father in law works at a chemical plant near Runcorn, and has been to China 4 times this year already, and his plant has provided another 18 visits so far this year alone. And it's not a Chinese backed company. Imagine how many times those figures are replicated around the MAN catchment?

There are the student links as mentioned, tourism via the lakes etc and now office based roles that Airport city are aiming for.

Logistics wise, Manchester is better places to serve a larger area. Birmingham is at the heart of England, but, for the UK as a whole, Manchester is more central, hence we see more cargo etc. Cathay Pacific set the world record for cargo carried on a B777, and it happened to be a Manchester-Hong Kong flight.

The Manchester-China market, according to the CAA, was more than double that from BHX, based on total journeys on a MAN/BHX-hub-China routing, so, to me, it was quite clear why Manchester gained these flights.

Going east, Manchester really is a force to be reckoned with now, there are up to 17 daily flights heading east now, to Dubai, Abu Dhabi, Doha, Jeddah, Islamabad, Erbil, Sulamanyah, Istanbul, Singapore, Hong Kong, Beijing, Lahore and Goa . Success breeds success, there is a reason the eastern market is so strong from Manchester, and no, it's not all down to politics as mooted elsewhere.

 

[Ray Finkle]

In fairness at the time I had no reason to doubt what he said, but, I have seen no evidence for and no evidence against. If people feel so passionately about it that they want to remove all future doubt, which there will be now, then I think he needs to be challenged to prove what he claims, even if it potentially means getting the answer some may not want to hear.

 

[Brum X]

In fairness at the time I had no reason to doubt what he said, but, I have seen no evidence for and no evidence against. If people feel so passionately about it that they want to remove all future doubt, which there will be now, then I think he needs to be challenged to prove what he claims, even if it potentially means getting the answer some may not want to hear.

Im not on twitter but i think im going to send an email, he has replied to my emails in the past. I just am interested in his reply on this subject.

 

[Seasider]

I'm glad I am not on twitter, nor facebook or any other social media. When you are talking "face to face" you usually think about what you are saying and how they will react. A lot of people post on social media (from what I am told and reports in the media) without thinking of the consequences, hence some people have got in to trouble.

 

[Brum X]

My reply from Mr Paul Kehoe CEO BHX

Reply from Mr Kehoe, sorry the first bit of my email is about BHX and new routes, the second part of my email then went onto his twitter reponse yesterday about MAN. At least he replies, everytime in fact.

Dear Alan

Thanks for your email and your continuing support for BHX.

I will try to answer your questions as best I can.

Your maths is not bad. when I recently mentioned the number 10, I was overseas and believed that airline 10 had been announced, it has not but the announcement has been delayed by a week. I am hoping that we will be in a position to clear this up next week. We'll see.

I am glad you like the fact that NAS and Wizz have come to BHX - it has taken sometime but we have achieved that goal - we just need to make sure that we fill the aircraft. This is in addition to the other airlines we have secured like Vueling and the third Emirates service.

EasyJet operate a winter programme to the Alps and a year round service to Belfast. We would like them to do more but they tell us that the can serve BHX from LPL, BRS, MAN and LTN and the they have a big downer on the Midlands because of their poor performance at EMA a few years back. We now have 7 LCCs and will have Blue Air arriving next year.

As to BHX being expensive, over the last 7 years of my time at the airport, we have sought to reduce our operating costs and now have probably the lowest cost base of any of the larger European Airports. In fact a recent report by the Strategy arm of PWC has shown that BHX was the second lowest cost base in 2014. We have been able to pass these savings onto our airline customers, many of which have grown over the last two years.

We have known that Hainan was going into Manchester for about a 18 months whilst we have been talking to them about our charter operation. The UK Govt have a massive focus on the Northern Po'rhouse and have been encouraging the Chinese to go to Manchester. So much so that through Visit Britain (from DCMS) and local tourism organisations in the north some £12m has been made available to support inbound tourism to that region. I asked the Sec of State if we could have some funding for our Chinese flight programme and although the Minister was initially supportive, he advised after discussions with civil servants that no such funds were available.

As to Manchester - I believe that they are a well run airport company but they are part of a group formation which does impinge on the competitive nature of the market. We have to live with it. They have been brilliant at Marketing and quite frankly have been in pole position of the UK non London Airports since 1960. My only issue, is that I want there to be a level playing field but that it is somewhat difficult, especially when they have Central Govt support led by the efforts of the Chancellor of the Exchequer who is a local Manchester region MP.

As to other routes let's see what the future brings.

I hope this answers the majority of your questions.

Best wishes

Paul Kehoe

Sent from my iPad

 

[User001]

So in fact, Manchester didn't have a £12 million subsidy to bring in Hainan, it came in the form of various visit Britain projects across the North West. Don't have the links, but, this £12 million was not a Manchester, nor even a China specific subsidy, it was a campaign to promote Leeds, Manchester and Liverpool for all genres of inbound tourism. Birmingham has had similar grants.

They are 2 very different things.

As I suspected, quick to throw his toys out of the pram and insinuate one thing, but in fact, the reality is very different!

I hope MAN take note and bring him to task for his unsubstantiated and quite defamatory claims now he has even admitted himself that his original claims were vastly different to the reality.

 

[Brum X]

Well there you go and a snappy reply but im also not convinced that this 12m was the reason why Hainan chose MAN over BHX.

 

[User001]

Well, he even said himself that he has known Hainan were heading to MAN well before this years charter programme, so, how can he complain about a subsidy, now known not to be a direct subsidy after all, when he knew what was happening.

Also, all this talk of subsidies, it's well known airports give them to airlines, but, subsidies are not be given to passengers, so, Paul Kehoe complains of 'deep pockets' at MAN, but what about the on average 93% loads Cathay is seeing at Manchester and 99.9% cargo loads. Are all those people coming because Manchester gets subsidies too?

Honestly, I had a dislike of the man before this anyway, but, the email has exposed him for the complete idiot he really is when it comes to airport rivalry,

Like I say, I expect it on forums and by people like us who are fanboys (not ashamed to admit I'm one), but, not from a public figure and head of business and ambassador like him.

Honestly, words fail.

 

[Brum X]

Just have a glass of wine and you will be fine User001

Yeah, gotta admit i think he went over the top with the claim, maybe he will think more before he posts stuff in the future. I get the feeling that he doesnt care if he is not liked outside of the midlands. I still think he does a great job banging the drum for brum but making "cheeky" comments wont get him anywhere.

 

[User001]

Well he also doesn't realise that his comments could be counter productive.

I'm not going as far as to say BHX and MAN should ever fully collaborate, as there is too much at stake for each region to compete for new air links, but, rather than slag off MAN the way he does, but especially when it comes to govt funding, maybe he could use MAN to be a 'tour de force' in the battle against APD and joined up 'visit Beitain' thinking.

He obviously thinks MAN is close to the UK govt, so, why not take advantage of that rather than bemoan a situation which is evidently too late to change in terms of the news he bemoans about?

 

[andyc941]

A few photos from last fridays Hainan announcement.

Photos taken from Hainans Facebook page thank you

 

[andyc941]

I noticed Hainan are promoting the Manchester-Bejjing flights really well,there is a nice banner advert on their website,and on their Facebook page they are promoting John Rylands library building in Manchester :s_cool

 

[User001]

Due to strong forward bookings, Hainan have confirmed they will use the larger A330-300 from the launch date instead of planned A330-200.

Good news indeed!

 

[Dobbo]

That is very positive. Hopefully it does not adversely affect CX and both go daily in due course.

Your move Air China... (And possibly China Eastern)

 

[Manniashraf]

Just been going through Hainan airlines timetables and some flight times do vary from departing Manchester at 11:00am-12:00-12:25 through some weeks. The timing of take offs do variate but I have also noticed from the end of October the aircraft does just say 'Airbus industries A330. With the flights before October saying 'A330-300'

So to me it does say that Hainan airlines are still playing games with their time tables but let's wait and see what next surprise they have up there cute Chinese sleeve! :aggressive:

Anyone know how cathays performing ?

 

[Dobbo]

Will drop the numbers onto the Cathay Thread shortly.

 

[User001]

I noticed that regarding the China flights, Paul Kehoe of BHX did an interview today and couldn't resist the little digs against MAN again.

Firstly, he is still claiming that MAN 'stole' the Hainan flights, despite MAN talking to them first and Hainan delaying the MAN flights to run BHX (how you can steal something you pretty much had is beyond me).

Secondly, he stated that BHX will look after the Chinese passengers better than MAN, as at MAN they will be 'just another airline'.
That may be partly true, however, BHX puts a lot of pomp into the charter flights, as it's easier to pool the resources and give a short series of flights a good welcome. It's too short for the novelty to wear off.
At MAN, they will be a scheduled flight, you can't have the BHX level of pomp for EVERY flight, it's unsustainable. Even at BHX if they had a scheduled flight it would wear off. In other words, more falsity again.

Thirdly, MAN has spent eye watering amounts in advertising and promoting Hainan, so, who is he to say MAN wouldn't look after Hainan as much as BHX. Hainan obviously saw the better prospect otherwise they would have started BHX, wouldn't they.

BHX may have done well in 2015 and into 2016, but that man has a gob big enough to encapsulate the UK, let alone the West Midlands.

 

[Jon Dempsey]

Yawn!