Leeds East - General Thread

[Bigman]

OK then, who saw the Look North report last night about the fly-in at Church Fenton. The new owner was highlighting the fact that unlike LBA, they have a parallel taxiway (a bit dog-leggy looking on Google Earth). He is hinting at wanting to make it a second airport for Leeds. Runway is a bit a short, but I guess could be extended a bit. Road access would seem to be a major issue. A railway station 1 mile away with 6 trains an hour passing through going to Leeds (about 17-18 minutes if non-stop)and York, plus Bradford, Halifax, Hebden Bridge, Manchester and Sheffield that are already served is something of a head start.

I would be interested to hear everyone else's thoughts.

 

[a300boy]

Re: Church Fenton

Chris Makin makes a good case for Church Fenton. The longest runway is just over 6000ft long and is into wind most of the time [ 24/06 ] the taxiways go to the end of both runways and there is room to extend the parking area and the main runway could also be extended subject to a farm at the eastern end being purchased. I would think it is pretty near the same distance to Leeds City Centre and nearer to York. The airfield is only 30 ft above sea level and as you say very close to the railway line. Chris already has his own airfield at Garforth with two grass runways one of which has lights on it and is a long time business and private pilot.

 

[yorkguy]

Re: Church Fenton

I understand that the NIMBY lobby is galvanising its opposition already through the well-established and vocal anti-HS2 group in Church Fenton. It's unlikely that either project will materialise any time soon (if ever) so they'd be better employed on their other main focus - stopping house builders building new homes just like the ones every NIMBY already owns.

 

[jason1-11]

Re: Church Fenton

If we could get the airport and the services commensurate with the regions importance at Church Fenton, then I’m all for it., but I’m also a realist.

Unfortunately, with the high cost of creating the required transport links, Terminal improvements and relevant runway modifications and the apparent lack of desire to do it (I hope the Masterplan makes my eat my words) , Leeds Bradford will always be playing second fiddle to Manchester and the people of Yorkshire will continue to receive a well below par service.

 

[ChurchFenton]

Re: Church Fenton - Thread

The quotes I've read to date from Chris Makin have indicated that he sees potential in a few, small, commuter aircraft types operating from Church Fenton, should any airlines be interested. I think the main focus of his investment is to set up a flight training school and attract private, GA and VIP operations, any airline ops (if any) would just be an added bonus to the running of the site.

As a resident of Church Fenton, I can say that HS2 is a far bigger issue with many residents than the airfield right now. We're already used to having a few small props buzzing in and out (well, before the RAF closed it at least) and most seem to accept its place in the village setup, many actually being very positive about it. HS2 on the other hand came from nowhere and many of those affected bought their homes long before there was ever any talk of a high speed rail line, planned to be built on stilts 30ft above the ground, tearing by close to them.

I suspect a small, slow start, building to a handful of small, turboprop commuter flights types per day wouldn't raise too many eyebrows. I think the fear for many residents would be from potential scaremongering with rumours of "jumbo jets screaming past at all times of day and night".

We're a long way from anything happening, if at all, so don't think we're going to see LBA relocating anytime soon!

 

[leedsman]

Re: Church Fenton - Thread

From a Leeds City Region perspective, the introduction of Church Fenton into the mix is an interesting one. Like anything, it would take years to build up, but with the right decisions I believe it could be a real success. If things do progress at CF, it might actually make LBA take note and stir up some action.

There are a lot of people in the LBA eastern catchment who do not even consider using it, and opt for the journey to MAN instead. Having a more accessible option to the east of Leeds (in addition to LBA) may benefit the region more, as people keep their flying activity to this side of the pennines.

Road access is an issue as has been pointed out, but getting to CF by road isn't a total nightmare. The journey from York is easy, and CF can only be about 5 minutes drive from the A64 exit at Tadcaster. From other directions (e.g. Selby) the roads are smaller, but have little if any congestion !!

Rail access (with some investment) could be as close to perfect as it gets. The ECML is close by on the east side, and the busy Leeds-York line close by on the west side. Then there is HS2, if it happens. The current CF rail station is big for the size of the village it serves, although the number of services which stop is small. Parkway station??

The airfield is at sea level, on flat terrain, although on the down side the vale of york is known to be prone to low lying fog. When CF is foggy, LBA is probably clear and vice versa - good diversion alternatives !!

The runways are ideal, and look more straight forward to extend. The main runway 06/24 is indicated as 1877m. Into the prevailing wind on 24, the landing distance available is the full 1877m, which compares well to 1802m (14) and 1916m (32). The 06 end has a small LDA reduction due to the road presumably. Take off wise LBA has quite a bit more surface.

It will be interesting to see how all this develops.

 

[LBAYORKIE]

Re: Church Fenton - Thread

Could this also spell the end for Sherburn airfield? Presumably CF Could be more atttractive for GA.

 

[Aviador]

Re: Church Fenton - Thread


Arguably Church Fenton is well placed to serve the Leeds City Region. Looking on the map Huddersfield is the midway point between Church Fenton and Manchester airport so anybody living East of Huddersfield would find it easier to get to Church Fenton than to Manchester if a link road was built to the A1(M).

 

[White Heather]

Re: Church Fenton - Thread

Interesting! Some who are old enough (like me!) may remember that way back in the early 70's, when LBA was refused a runway extension by Peter Walker MP, there was talk of closing LBA down altogether an moving the whole operation to Church Fenton - which even then was under threat of closure by the RAF. Of course, it didn't happen and the rest is history, but despite not really wishing to keep Church Fenton long term, the RAF objected because the airfield was situated within a designated military flying zone. It still is!! LBA flight paths still to this day keep aircraft out of that area (roughly the Eastern side of the A1) until they reach a specific height. So that would be a problem to be overcome if there was any suggestion of it becoming a proper commercial airport.

Back in the 70's, objections to Church Fenton also came from Bradford - as the proposal would be moving the airport further away from them. In those days road links were not up to today's standards, so getting from Bradford to Church Fenton would be must easier today - but I suspect there would still be a high risk that passengers from the western side of LBA's catchment, might be tempted to head West over the hill to MAN rather than East to Church Fenton.

All that said, if Leeds was ever to have another airport Church Fenton would be a good bet, particulary with a runway extension. Overall, it would be a lot cheaper than building a new airport from scratch. I cannot see it happenening, but in the meantime, I certainly like the idea that Church Fenton could be equipped to act as a relief airport for LBA on our all too frequent 'dodgy weather' days. If airlines could simply fly there instead of other airports, it would be much better. Again, the reality is it isn't likely - for starters, who would deal with the aircraft on the ground and the passengers (even assuming they built a small terminal)? You can't have handling agents operating there on an as and when needed basis.

I wouldn't be at all surprised though if this story doesn't spark more interest in the possibilities of a new airport for Leeds. Ready made airfield, that needs to be extended (but relatively cheaply), nearby rail link, proposed HS2 link, runway right direction, flat ground are all positives. Building roads is relatively cheap - link roads to the A64 and A1 would be do-able. OK, the Vale of York is prone to fog - but with Cat 3 ILS both ends, no physical obstructions, and an extended runway, far more flights would be able to do auto lands than is currently the case at LBA.

Perhaps Bridgepoint should get together with Mr Makin, make him an offer he can't refuse, and work together to create an airport worthy of the region at probably a fraction of the cost that a 'new build' would cost.

Apologies to Church Fenton though - I am sure such a proposal would be the cause of much grief to the East of Leeds. HS2 is bad enough news for them - the prospect of a new commercial airport to add to it would be cruel!

 

[Daviator]

Re: Church Fenton - Thread

As an active flying member at Sherburn, I'm sure they will be concerned at a rival flying organisation set up a couple of miles away. Sherburn is one of the busiest GA airfields in the country, and a new commercial airfield a couple of miles away would be a nightmare for them. Possible new controlled airspace issues, maybe extending Doncaster's zone northwards, and a well organised local anti aircraft noise lobby will do for starters.
It's too near to DSA and LBA to be a serious proposition surely?

 

[Aviador]

Re: Church Fenton - Thread

Arguably Church Fenton is well placed to serve the Leeds City Region. Looking on the map Huddersfield is the midway point between Church Fenton and Manchester airport so anybody living East of Huddersfield would find it easier to get to Church Fenton than to Manchester if a link road was built to the A1(M).

Another way of looking at it would be say the entire Leeds City Region including Huddersfield, Halifax, Leeds, Bradford and York would be within a 40 minutes drive time of Church Fenton.

 

[Seasider]

Re: Church Fenton - Thread

Road access is an issue as has been pointed out, but getting to CF by road isn't a total nightmare. The journey from York is easy, and CF can only be about 5 minutes drive from the A64 exit at Tadcaster. From other directions (e.g. Selby) the roads are smaller, but have little if any congestion !!

Do you know the road from the A64 at Tadcaster? It is 5miles and you would do well to take less than 10mins.
All the other roads are minor roads and due to the nature of those roads, 30mph would be about the maximum achievable safely.
I remember going to the SSAFA Air Displays at Church Fenton in the 70/80's and the chaos on the roads.

I said months ago, when a Leeds Councillor suggested closing LBA and developing Church Fenton, it's a no brainer.
1. There is not the money.
2. Anyone living West of Leeds will go to MAN.

 

[leedsman]

Re: Church Fenton - Thread

Do you know the road from the A64 at Tadcaster? It is 5miles and you would do well to take less than 10mins. All the other roads are minor roads and due to the nature of those roads, 30mph would be about the maximum achievable safely.

Hi Seasider. I do know that part of the world and travel around there quite a bit. I would take the A162 and then the local road through Ulleskelf village, and with the exception of the village section, the journey is more than 30mph the whole way. Point taken though it is probably 10 minutes from the A64 rather than 5. What I am trying to get across, is that the field is not very far away from dual carriageway roads, and 3/4 lane motorways are not that much further away again.

I said months ago, when a Leeds Councillor suggested closing LBA and developing Church Fenton, it's a no brainer.
1. There is not the money.
2. Anyone living West of Leeds will go to MAN.

Couldn't the two facilities co-exist in serving the wider region ?

I am very much an LBA supporter, but for me, I just cannot see how it can grow to the level where it adequately serves the entire region. The news today of all the extra housing around the LBA vicinity is just further supporting this view. The Yorkshire area will continue to support the aviation activity in other neighbouring regions if nothing more radical is put on the table and supported.

Once open, the new link road from the M18 to DSA will no doubt have an impact on the LBA southern catchment, should it result in airlines seeing the potential wider catchment it creates.

 

[johnt19570]

Re: Church Fenton - Thread

Good man for buying church fenton, now I wonder if he has enough money in his pot for..........................Airshows, wouldn't it be great for Yorkshire once again to host a yearly show, church fenton is ideal I used to go to the RAF shows. Well I can dream cant I ?

 

[Bigman]

Re: Church Fenton - Thread

I am curious as to how much the new link road to DSA is costing. The new link road to LBA is quoted as £38M, and given the terrain will be quite a technical challenge. In other words, how much would a new road across flat ground from Church Fenton with a bridge over the railway to join the A1 cost???

 

[Aviador]

Re: Church Fenton - Thread

I am curious as to how much the new link road to DSA is costing. The new link road to LBA is quoted as £38M, and given the terrain will be quite a technical challenge. In other words, how much would a new road across flat ground from Church Fenton with a bridge over the railway to join the A1 cost???

The FARRRS road at Doncaster will be a 4km dual carriageway road and is expected to cost around £56m to build. Back of a fag packet calculations, at a distance of around 8km as the crow flies, a high quality single carriageway link road from the A1(M) to Church Fenton would probably cost in the region of £60m. A link to the A64 would probably be a cheaper option at 6km as the crow flies, perhaps £45m for a single carriageway road.

I never realised just how close Church Fenton is to Leeds. It's exactly 14 miles from Leeds City Square to the end of the runway.

 

[Bigman]

Re: Church Fenton - Thread

Thanks for that Aviador. So potentially around £60m...so that's the road link sorted. Railway station already in place...a big chunk of the required runway already in place. That just leaves a new purpose built terminal.

There is a big debate going on on PPRUNE about this. Some people seem to be going on at how far Church Fenton is from Bradford. So, here's food for thought. There is a 747 bus that leaves LBA at 07:26 and arrives at Bradford Interchange at 08:20. That's 54 minutes. There is a train that leaves Church Fenton at 07:35 that arrives at Bradford Interchange at 08:24. That's 49 minutes which is 5 minutes less!!

A fast train from Church Fenton to Leeds City would take around 20 minutes. the stopper only takes 30 minutes. This is quicker than Manchester Piccadilly to Manchester Airport.

The trains that current pass through Church Fenton go to places like Newcastle, Edinburgh, Glasgow, Aberdeen, Manchester, Liverpool, Blackpool, Birmingham, Bristol and Plymouth. More importantly these pass through Bradford, Halifax, Dewsbury, Huddersfield, Wakefield, Pontefract, Sheffield and Scarborough. Lots of potential there for local access to the airport.

And then an aspect that no-one seems to have mentioned so far (apologies if you have)...freight. Big distribution depots nearby for Stobarts and Debenhams which could benefit from having a freighter capable airport on hand.

 

[User0001]

Re: Church Fenton - Thread

A fast train from Church Fenton to Leeds City would take around 20 minutes. the stopper only takes 30 minutes. This is quicker than Manchester Piccadilly to Manchester Airport.

Not quite.

99% of Piccadilly to Manchester airport trains take 15-20 minutes, only 1 of the trains out of 7 per hour takes 24 minutes.

 

[airforced]

Re: Church Fenton - Thread

I'm not sure why the LBA v MAN argument is rearing its ugly head in this thread as it is really inconsequential here. The case for an alternative location for LBA has been made and accepted by the local Councils as potentially desirable and Church Fenton would make a viable alternative. Getting to either airport by public transport is only the favoured choice for about 6% of passengers according to the most recent CAA surveys if my memory serves me right which means the vast majority of passengers will make their way to whichever airport under their own steam.

So let's forget about trains and buses for a moment and look at the limitations of LBA as far as a proper fully functioning entity is concerned. Currently there are so many negative operational aspects to suggest that LBA isn't 'fit for purpose' and to rectify those inadequacies would cost an inordinate amount of money, even if feasible, to make the exercise a non starter.

Church Fenton has the possibility to provide a solution. It would of course require a meeting of minds and a large chunk of investment but would be doable if everyone was pulling in the same direction. It wouldn't happen overnight but it would, if achieved, provide a viable and long lasting solution to the never ending problems of LBA's suitability as a true Regional airport. Any chance of everyone pulling together? Probably not but there's no harm in hoping is there?

 

[Aviador]

Re: Church Fenton - Thread

What is clear is Church Fenton would offer Leeds the best chance of an alternative international airport in the future. The current LBA site does have potential but it's owners appear unwilling to commit the significant funds to bring it up to scratch. This may well be because of the unwillingness of airlines to operate services year round because of the weather problems it endures.

We could argue Church Fenton would be faced with the same problem in that it will need significant sums on money spending on it to bring it up to any kind on standard worthy of the "international" name. On the same note though, airlines would be more willing to operate from there with a runway predominantly facing the wind and with a topography that would allow for Cat 3 on both ends of the runway.

Upgrading the A64 from Seacroft to the A1(M) would further improve the viability of Church Fenton as a new airport for Leeds. Another reason pointing in favour of Church Fenton vs Manchester airport for those living in the Huddersfield or Halifax area is the roads to the East of Leeds will be significantly quieter than those through Greater Manchester so Church Fenton would be far easier to reach for the whole of the Leeds City Region.

Church Fenton is arguably the best location for a new international airport for Yorkshire. LBA is difficult to get to, Doncaster airport is too far away from the major conurbations of West Yorkshire where as Church Fenton is close to the A1(M), M1, M62 and the A64.