Wizz Air

[White Heather]

Completely disagree.

MAG won’t care at all about LBA or LPL, this will be purely around getting a large volume of passengers with one airline through the door in one go. As mentioned above, Wizz could supply a big number of passengers per year which is all management at MAG will be focused on. It’s really simple…passengers = revenue. They also have a big infrastructure project to pay for and ultimately growing passenger numbers will be what pays for that.

If a by product of this that you weaken nearby airports then so be it. But it definitely won’t be a primary or even secondary concern for them.

Your entitled to disagree. But information I've been given in the past says otherwise. There have been examples where airlines previously operating out of LBA switched to MAN and information given from people working within the industry suggested they were enticed to do so, just as DSA did exactly the same with TUi who until then had an aircraft based at LBA. . You can dress it up however you like but MAN trying to pull Wizz in there will damage both LBA and LPL and they know it. Whether or not that is the primary objective is irrelevant.

There is finite amount of passenger demand in the North . If both LBA and LPL increase their psssenger throughput to 10m per annum that is going to make it harder for MAN to grow as it intends, so let's not pretend MAN have no interest in the goings on at competing airports! They absolutely are incentivised to ensure the likes of LBA and LPL don't grow sufficiently to damage their own growth. They'll be content to let other airports get on with it, but only where it's not impacting them. As the major airport, the hold all the cards when it comes to attracting airlines and if smaller airports are collateral damage, then fine.

 

[Speedbird1]

Your entitled to disagree. But information I've been given in the past says otherwise. There have been examples where airlines previously operating out of LBA switched to MAN and information given from people working within the industry suggested they were enticed to do so, just as DSA did exactly the same with TUi who until then had an aircraft based at LBA. . You can dress it up however you like but MAN trying to pull Wizz in there will damage both LBA and LPL and they know it. Whether or not that is the primary objective is irrelevant.

And I agree that they will know that it will damage their nearest competition.

However the fact remains that all management at MAG will be bothered about is increasing passenger numbers by any means necessary. To do this they will be targeting a large number of airlines including those already at LBA and LPL, but that’s just collateral damage. If it supplies a large volume of capacity and passengers then they will target said airline. They have an incredibly expensive project to pay for in the same way LBA will need growth to pay for theirs.

This isn’t about MAN wanting to poach business from LBA, it’s purely a numbers game.

 

[Silvercity]

Completely disagree.

MAG won’t care at all about LBA or LPL, this will be purely around getting a large volume of passengers with one airline through the door in one go. As mentioned above, Wizz could supply a big number of passengers per year which is all management at MAG will be focused on. It’s really simple…passengers = revenue. They also have a big infrastructure project to pay for and ultimately growing passenger numbers will be what pays for that.

If a by product of this that you weaken nearby airports then so be it. But it definitely won’t be a primary or even secondary concern for them.

Well let's hope that Manchester is unsuccessful. Im not sure it is a numbers game, there is knowledge of shall we say under the table negotiations which have affected Liverpool Airport and Im sure Leeds / Bradford which Manchester have instigated.

 

[EGCC_MAN]

Remember too that when airports compete for business it is a two-way street. A year or so back, LPL successfully bid for a based Jet2 operation which one could equally argue was a setback for MAN. Now it looks like AirBlue will launch LBA ahead of turning their attentions to MAN. This is the nature of competitive business. You lose one contract, you win another. It isn't a personal vendetta, just a routine tender process where the most attractive bid wins the prize. Unfortunately, if one of the bidders is particularly weak, a business can ultimately fail (see DSA). However, LBA seems quite fortunately placed, underpinned by a particularly strong Jet2 base and traffic levels which see the terminal operating close to capacity at times.

 

[White Heather]

Remember too that when airports compete for business it is a two-way street. A year or so back, LPL successfully bid for a based Jet2 operation which one could equally argue was a setback for MAN. Now it looks like AirBlue will launch LBA ahead of turning their attentions to MAN. This is the nature of competitive business. You lose one contract, you win another. It isn't a personal vendetta, just a routine tender process where the most attractive bid wins the prize. Unfortunately, if one of the bidders is particularly weak, a business can ultimately fail (see DSA). However, LBA seems quite fortunately placed, underpinned by a particularly strong Jet2 base and traffic levels which see the terminal operating close to capacity at times.

Yes, it's business and it's not personal. But it is cut throat when it needs to be and the industry in general is all about survival of the fittest. From that perspective, MAN is in a very strong position because it attracts airlines that smaller airports can't, or rarely do. Which is why it's a really big deal for the smaller airports when they potentially lose an airline to MAN. Proportionally, it can badly damage a smaller airport . It's not just about what that airline flies now, it's also what they might have operated in the future.

 

[EGCC_MAN]

Well let's hope that Manchester is unsuccessful. Im not sure it is a numbers game, there is knowledge of shall we say under the table negotiations which have affected Liverpool Airport and Im sure Leeds / Bradford which Manchester have instigated.

"Well let's hope that Manchester is unsuccessful ..." ... sorry, but that is tiresome talk. We all know that aircraft enthusiasts around the UK will have a strong preference for airlines serving THEIR local airport ahead of all others. And they will convince themselves that their airport is a way better proposition than the competition. But all that is sentimental nonsense as far as the industry is concerned. Airlines are big business, and they will strive to optimise return on investment. Simply that. It's about the bottom line. The hopes and dreams of armchair spotters are just not part of the conversation when airports and airlines sit down to negotiate contracts.

And sorry, "under the table negotiations" ...? All contract talks at any large business are routinely confidential, but this doesn't mean that anything underhand is happening. All businesses protect their private data, as indeed they should. Nothing sinister about this process at all. Airline contracts are not negotiated in public. Certainly not at LBA, LPL or MAN. Let's drop the conspiracy theories.

Moving on, one other thought which does occur to me is that Manchester Airport's MD, Chris Woodroofe, came to the airport from his previous role at London Gatwick. I can't be completely certain of the timeline, but I believe that Wizzair launched their LGW operation whilst he was in situ there. That means that the executives involved have an established working relationship, which is always helpful when there is further business to be done. And with MAN T1/T3 about to become a purely LCC terminal, MAG is likely in a position to offer terms which weren't an option back when prestige carriers shared the same floor space.

We also don't know who approached who. Rather than MAN "trying to poach business", it is far more likely that Wizz has asked airports to submit bids for the next phase of their business going forward. This is all part of the process too. Wizzair will weigh up the offers and make their choice.

Yes, it's business and it's not personal. But it is cut throat when it needs to be and the industry in general is all about survival of the fittest. From that perspective, MAN is in a very strong position because it attracts airlines that smaller airports can't, or rarely do. Which is why it's a really big deal for the smaller airports when they potentially lose an airline to MAN. Proportionally, it can badly damage a smaller airport . It's not just about what that airline flies now, it's also what they might have operated in the future.

I understand the frustration. No business likes to lose a major contract to a direct competitor, and it is true that the bigger players carry more clout. LHR will generally prevail versus MAN, MAN versus LBA, LBA versus HUY. It's the nature of business in a free market.

 

[Aviador]

Well either which way Wizz won't last two minutes at Manchester. Ryanair will do everything it can to fend them off and they will win. They'll flood the market with seats until Wizz are gone. I've already thought that they were pecking away at Wizz from LBA and LPL, but they'll go after them in a big way at Manchester . "BYEBYE Wizz" .

 

[lbaspotter]

If I remember correctly Wizz Air did the exactly the same thing last year when they applied for a load of MAN slots, but they eventually didn’t take them up and stayed at LBA & LPL this summer.

I’m sure both LBA & LPL management will be aware of MAN rumours and will be in contact and having discussions with Wizz Air to keep there operations. Even If it means looking at ways of offering newer deals to counter any deal MAN management have offered Wizz Air to switch?

 

[EGCC_MAN]

If I remember correctly Wizz Air did the exactly the same thing last year when they applied for a load of MAN slots, but they eventually didn’t take them up and stayed at LBA & LPL this summer.

I’m sure both LBA & LPL management will be aware of MAN rumours and will be in contact and having discussions with Wizz Air to keep there operations. Even If it means looking at ways of offering newer deals to counter any deal MAN management have offered Wizz Air to switch?

That's the MO of ULCC's. They play off airports one against another and secure the cheapest deal.

 

[Aviador]

If I remember correctly Wizz Air did the exactly the same thing last year when they applied for a load of MAN slots, but they eventually didn’t take them up and stayed at LBA & LPL this summer.

I’m sure both LBA & LPL management will be aware of MAN rumours and will be in contact and having discussions with Wizz Air to keep there operations. Even If it means looking at ways of offering newer deals to counter any deal MAN management have offered Wizz Air to switch?

@LBAYORKIE and I spoke to the LBA CEO privately on the subject after one of the local meetings a few months back. I won't divulge any further other than to say he is aware of what is going on.

What I will say is Manchester's pockets might not be as deep as one would expect. They have a £bn redevelopment program to pay for so that may make any deal less favourable.

 

[White Heather]

@LBAYORKIE and I spoke to the LBA CEO privately on the subject after one of the local meetings a few months back. I won't divulge any further other than he is aware of what is going on.

What I will say is Manchester's pockets might not be as deep as one would expect. They have a £bn redevelopment program to pay for so that may make any deal less favourable.

I spoke to him too, last year, when the same rumours surfaced. At that time he just said he would be surprised if MAN were not trying to get Wizz as it goes on all the time, across the industry. Every airport would like a bigger, better, portfolio of airlines and routes.

 

[LBAYORKIE]

I spoke to him too, last year, when the same rumours surfaced. At that time he just said he would be surprised if MAN were not trying to get Wizz as it goes on all the time, across the industry. Every airport would like a bigger, better, portfolio of airlines and routes.

Its normally good to spread the risk. Losing Wizz would put Jet2 and Ryanair in a better negotiating position.

 

[EGCC_MAN]

What I will say is Manchester's pockets might not be as deep as one would expect. They have a £bn redevelopment program to pay for so that may make any deal less favourable.

It is no secret in the aviation sector that MAG's room for financial manoeuvre is constrained. In the UK, regional airports receive little or no public funding to help their development; new construction must be financed by the business itself. MAG has been financing ongoing improvements at scale at all three group airports: STN, MAN and EMA. Those of you who visit the threads of these airports will notice frequently-expressed frustration by some at the slow pace of improvements ... some expect to build the next Changi by 2026. But it simply isn't possible. These businesses invest at a rate they can afford, not at a rate they dream of. And remember that the entire sector was ravaged by the covid years - a cavernous pool of revenue lost unexpectedly, never to be recovered. Sunak looked the other way, whilst helping out almost every other sector with public money.

So our airports are in recovery, but they can't invest with abandon. Every penny must be justified. Coming back to contracts with airline operators, there generally is some funding for incentives. There has to be, or they won't win business. Typically, these would be triggered by launching schedules to a completely new destination (but not one already served by another carrier from the same airport). Perhaps also an agreed discount lasting for a defined period to offset some of the initial start-up costs. But the contract as a whole must be pitched at a level which is seen to be fair, and not one which will trigger outrage and service withdrawals by competing incumbent carriers. Of course, it is also important that the airport business ultimately makes a positive return on the agreed terms. In this country, they can't just fund the public good out of the kindness of their hearts.

 

[pug]

@EGCC_MAN i think strategic value does come into the discussion even with the ULCCs. I think it’s quite hard to believe for instance that Ryanair would pay less to fly from MAN than they do LPL, but there is value for Ryanair to be there, much as they probably don’t want to admit.

If the rumours about Wizz are true then I doubt it’s all about offers/incentives and undercutting competition to take business away. The market is shrinking for flights to Eastern Europe, not only for tourists (Ukraine etc) but for the migrant workforce that has probably reduced in size and/or has evolved in such a way as to see that people are travelling back and forth less frequently. So again if Wizz were to consolidate at MAN it would probably be about an identified strategic value for the airline in doing so and not just a case of MAG trying to steal business away from other airports in the wider catchment area.

 

[EGCC_MAN]

PUG - I don't disagree with anything you have written there. Others have raised the subject of preferential (financial) terms and I have addressed these, but an operator will decide based upon the whole package - what the airport as a destination brings to the table - not just the fees element. This is why we are rarely surprised when an airline chooses to operate a new service from Heathrow when they could secure cheaper fees at Gatwick. Catchment, surface access, regional affluence, propensity to travel, interline opportunities, tourism appeal - all these factors and many more play a role in influencing the final decision.

 

[Bob O'JOb]

"Well let's hope that Manchester is unsuccessful ..." ... sorry, but that is tiresome talk. We all know that aircraft enthusiasts around the UK will have a strong preference for airlines serving THEIR local airport ahead of all others. And they will convince themselves that their airport is a way better proposition than the competition. But all that is sentimental nonsense as far as the industry is concerned. Airlines are big business, and they will strive to optimise return on investment. Simply that. It's about the bottom line. The hopes and dreams of armchair spotters are just not part of the conversation when airports and airlines sit down to negotiate contracts.

And sorry, "under the table negotiations" ...? All contract talks at any large business are routinely confidential, but this doesn't mean that anything underhand is happening. All businesses protect their private data, as indeed they should. Nothing sinister about this process at all. Airline contracts are not negotiated in public. Certainly not at LBA, LPL or MAN. Let's drop the conspiracy theories.

Moving on, one other thought which does occur to me is that Manchester Airport's MD, Chris Woodroofe, came to the airport from his previous role at London Gatwick. I can't be completely certain of the timeline, but I believe that Wizzair launched their LGW operation whilst he was in situ there. That means that the executives involved have an established working relationship, which is always helpful when there is further business to be done. And with MAN T1/T3 about to become a purely LCC terminal, MAG is likely in a position to offer terms which weren't an option back when prestige carriers shared the same floor space.

We also don't know who approached who. Rather than MAN "trying to poach business", it is far more likely that Wizz has asked airports to submit bids for the next phase of their business going forward. This is all part of the process too. Wizzair will weigh up the offers and make their choice.



I understand the frustration. No business likes to lose a major contract to a direct competitor, and it is true that the bigger players carry more clout. LHR will generally prevail versus MAN, MAN versus LBA, LBA versus HUY. It's the nature of business in a free market.

Coming on here, talking sense. Can someone ban him/her please?

 

[Finger66]

Don't worry @Bob O'JOb common sense will be gone in a wizz.......

.......and there you go!

 

[Silvercity]

@LBAYORKIE and I spoke to the LBA CEO privately on the subject after one of the local meetings a few months back. I won't divulge any further other than he is aware of what is going on.

What I will say is Manchester's pockets might not be as deep as one would expect. They have a £bn redevelopment program to pay for so that may make any deal less favourable.

I Know LPL management are also aware

"Well let's hope that Manchester is unsuccessful ..." ... sorry, but that is tiresome talk. We all know that aircraft enthusiasts around the UK will have a strong preference for airlines serving THEIR local airport ahead of all others. And they will convince themselves that their airport is a way better proposition than the competition. But all that is sentimental nonsense as far as the industry is concerned. Airlines are big business, and they will strive to optimise return on investment. Simply that. It's about the bottom line. The hopes and dreams of armchair spotters are just not part of the conversation when airports and airlines sit down to negotiate contracts.

And sorry, "under the table negotiations" ...? All contract talks at any large business are routinely confidential, but this doesn't mean that anything underhand is happening. All businesses protect their private data, as indeed they should. Nothing sinister about this process at all. Airline contracts are not negotiated in public. Certainly not at LBA, LPL or MAN. Let's drop the conspiracy theories.

Moving on, one other thought which does occur to me is that Manchester Airport's MD, Chris Woodroofe, came to the airport from his previous role at London Gatwick. I can't be completely certain of the timeline, but I believe that Wizzair launched their LGW operation whilst he was in situ there. That means that the executives involved have an established working relationship, which is always helpful when there is further business to be done. And with MAN T1/T3 about to become a purely LCC terminal, MAG is likely in a position to offer terms which weren't an option back when prestige carriers shared the same floor space.

We also don't know who approached who. Rather than MAN "trying to poach business", it is far more likely that Wizz has asked airports to submit bids for the next phase of their business going forward. This is all part of the process too. Wizzair will weigh up the offers and make their choice.



I understand the frustration. No business likes to lose a major contract to a direct competitor, and it is true that the bigger players carry more clout. LHR will generally prevail versus MAN, MAN versus LBA, LBA versus HUY. It's the nature of business in a free market.

You may call it conspiracy theories. For me it is trusted confidential information.

 

[Aviador]

There may indeed be a desire to relocate to Manchester Airport but with bigger airports come more commercial risks such as air traffic congestion delays arriving and departing. Parking remotely due to gates close to the terminal being taken by higher paying airlines and On Time Performance Penalties for gate closures ULCCs often have. Moving to bigger airport is not an upgrade, it's a fundamental compromise that attacks the very pillars of an Ultra Low Cost Carrier. That along with Ryanair already perusing this course, it is not a recipe for success for Wizz if they chose to go down this route.

 

[pug]

There may indeed be a desire to relocate to Manchester Airport but with bigger airports come more commercial risks such as air traffic congestion delays arriving and departing. Parking remotely due to gates close to the terminal being taken by higher paying airlines and On Time Performance Penalties for gate closures ULCCs often have. Moving to bigger airport is not an upgrade, it's a fundamental compromise that attacks the very pillars of an Ultra Low Cost Carrier. That along with Ryanair already perusing this course, it is not a recipe for success for Wizz if they chose to go down this route.

I would agree, but I think it’s clear that Wizz aren’t in the best position at the moment. I wonder how much the Eastern threat might be impacting their business? Maybe not so much at the moment but this may heighten in the coming years. Not to mention their sojourn in the Middle East that seems to have caused them problems. I’m not suggesting that’s the case, indeed I hope it’s not, but it does look like Wizz are struggling to find their place in the midst of several challenges and they may even be employing a survival attempt. It wasn’t too long ago they started offering a paid membership plan which, even on initial inspection, was clearly only going to financially benefit very frequently fliers!

As @EGCC_MAN outlined, the Eastern European market is low yielding and so if Wizz did retreat to consolidate at MAN they’d be doing so in the knowledge that Ryanair probably aren’t about to usurp them at LBA and LPL. But that’s just my opinion, I hope it’s an incorrect one! Nice to see some variation at LBA.