Leeds Bradford - General Thread

[User0001]

I think that the notion of people not booking flights from LBA inthe winter because of the bad weather is a no-brainer. As previously stated, the majority of LBA traffic is tourist who do not travel in the same numbers during the winter. Reduced passengers, therefore the airlines consolidate on the major airports.
If people decide to avoid LBA because of the weather, how are they going to get to the other airports? The number of flights affected by the weather is only a small percentage of the total number.
By the way, I have just booked to go to AGP at the beginning of January, never thought about the weather affecting my flight.

Correct. People seem to forget that the airport are talking to airlines all of the time - existing operators and potential new operators. If airlines were queueing up to operate more services over winter but were put off by weather issues, then this would be much higher up the priority list.

Also, compared to the first winter schedule that Bridgepoint inherited from the council, this winter will see a Ryanair base, a Monarch base and services from BA, PIA and Easyjet. None of this was present in 2007/2008. What has gone the other way is domestic traffic, which was always a good source of year round passenger throughput. The collapse of the UK domestic market and the struggles of operators like Air Southwest, bmi and flybe is nothing to do with the winter weather at LBA.

As for some of the other points; Bristol has been operating under private ownership in some shape or form since 1997. It had a ten year head start on LBA and for most of those ten years, the economy was booming. The first 5 years of private ownership at LBA have been some of the most difficult in the industry. Nonetheless, this summer, average international traffic at LBA was 42% higher than summer 2007 (which was the first summer schedule inherited by Bridegpoint). Of competing airports in the 90 minute radius of LBA, the next best performer was East Midlands which grew it's international traffic by 0.2%. Let me reiterate. LBA was 42% higher. The next best was 0.2%. With figures like that, some people may be brave enough to offer a view that the people responsible for route development actually know what they're doing. If so, is it possible they know what they are doing in summer but are clueless in winter ? Somehow I doubt it.

 

[Bigman]

Just a note about domestic services, which I think is very relevant. If you look back about 10 years or so you will find that there were very erratic rail services from Leeds. For example, you had 1 direct train per day to Edinburgh and Aberdeen, every few hours to Bristol, Exeter and Plymouth and nothing at all to Glasgow.

The current rail timetable sees regular hourly trains to both Edinburgh, Bristol, Exeter and Plymouth, and a regular 2 hourly service to Glasgow and Dundee.

The extra security measures and the current ’get to the airport 2 hours early’ culture has made direct centre to centre rail travel far more attractive.

It is therefore not surprising that we have seen a major scaling back of domestic services. I bet a lot of UK airports will have shown the same trends over the last 10 years. Plymouth hasn’t even got an airport now!!
So let’s look at all the positives as LS16 says.

 

[Aviador]

It is important to point out that nobody has said the people responsible for the summer route development are clueless in the winter. We know Bristol airport was catapulted into the airport premier league by people who are current in LBA's management team.

One of the reasons I picked BRS as a comparison was because of it's similarities with LBA. Like LBA, Bristol airport is sat on a hill top and suffers from low cloud and hill fog. Like LBA, Bristol airport has poor road connections and like LBA, Bristol airport relies heavily on low cost airlines.

Blaming the economic downturn no longer has any weight when we see other airports expanding. Bristol airport is building a new "central walkway" to accommodate "long haul flights", Birmingham airport is extending it's runway to accommodate more long haul traffic. Manchester airport is pushing ahead with it's "airport city", London Heathrow is building a new Terminal 2 and Southend is extending it's terminal.

Admittedly we are seeing a certain amount of additional capacity during the winter months from what has been a very low starting block. We have to admit it will take time to get to similar traffic levels as other similar sized airports. Even when the right management team is already in place, it's frustrating to admit that LBA still seems to be struggling to progress as fast as we'd like to see in the winter months when we see other similar sized airports sustaining a good winter operation.

The question is, do the airports owners have the willingness to spend the necessary money on the right things to make the airport more attractive to airlines to develop their winter offerings?

 

[adam]

I'll also add to the above that the Leeds to London trains have also gone half hourly with reduced journey times in as little as 1 hour 59 mins. Virgin West Coast have upgraded they're lines and trains so Leeds to Glasgow via a change at Preston has become more desirable through faster, quicker and newer trains from Preston to Glasgow.

 

[lbaspotter]

With the right airline I actually think domestic flights to either Newquay or Exeter would work from Leeds still as it takes nearly the full day by train. Same can be said about the Aberdeen route which we still have and for the Glasgow service. That's if you just going on a day trip.

As we all know London Heathrow route is a different kettle off fish. BA's primary concern on that route is worldwide connections not point to point passengers hence the schedule we have.

 

[a300boy]

I know for a fact that Lbia weather is a reason for some local firms and individuals not to use Lbia in winter time even if others think it is a "no brainer" so you will not change my mind on the subject but I will respect the opinions of the majority. My neighbor only asked me last week why so many flights end up diverting to Manchester which is what happened to him recently. I could have spent all day explaining the various problems and only wish we could address some of them. I wonder what will happen if Jet 2 have only the B737-800 type at Lbia and are too heavy to autoland in bad weather like the B757. I think it would have a serious effect on their costs. I am going to try and keep a record of how many Cat 2-3 approaches are made this winter and how many times aircraft cannot accept to do one because of performance limitations that are not associated with the aircraft equipment status. I would make a guess that if you leave Lbia on a B757 on a holiday in the winter period the chance of being diverted on your return leg is around 30% and thats not the aircraft or operators fault.

 

[michael]

Over 20 years ago I flew from LHR to LBA on a British Midland aircraft and as we left the terminal at LHR the pilot gave his usual welcome to the punters. Amongst his well chosen words were these - - you'll be pleased to know it's windy at Leeds but that's nothing we're not used to because it's always either windy or foggy up there' . -- Nothing changes!! :s_crazy

 

[Seasider]

a300boy
I am looking forward to seeing the statistics that you are going to collate, I think it will provide for interesting discussion.
I would like to ask a favour. Could you keep a record of the number of B757 diverts as 30% seems a little high to me.

 

[a300boy]

It probably is ! But lets see how it goes. any help from members would be appreciated. I will post what I see and hear and what you guys and gals tell me will be added to the stats.

 

[a300boy]

It probably is ! But lets see how it goes. any help from members would be appreciated. I will post what I see and hear and what you guys and gals tell me will be added to the stats.

 

[User0001]

It is important to point out that nobody has said the people responsible for the summer route development are clueless in the winter. We know Bristol airport was catapulted into the airport premier league by people who are current in LBA's management team.

But this is the only logical interpretation of what's being implied. The up front investment was £145m, they have spent over £40m in capital investment and restructuring costs and fees to airlines have been discounted by over 25% since 2007 - a further cost of > £5m. The reputation of the airport is massively improved within both the travel trade and the airline industry and its now taken much more seriously by airlines that are looking to expand in the North.

So I'm left scratching my head wondering why having spent 6 years dragging the place up by the bootstraps and having sunk getting on for £200m into the project and when things are beginning pick up in the wider economy, they would choose not to spend a couple of million more on a CAT2 system on RWY14 which (according to some views on here) would radically improve traffic in winter ? It makes no sense, none at all, and it just doesn't fit with the rest of what's going on.

 

[SNOWMAN]

hi ls16
the last line states does not fit in with whats going on,well what is going on??
I for one do not like flying out of lba in the winter,i have been diverted due to fog and don't recommend it.i have been a lba user and supporter for a lot of years now and would feel a lot happier with a cat 2 on runway 14 as have said the cost is 2million whats that in the greater scale of things.we are booked to fly out of Doncaster this Friday instead of lba to agp for the above reason.we live in leeds 15 and it only takes 20 mins longer than lbd.
regards sm1
ps this is just my view, :drinks:

 

[Aviador]

It is important to point out that nobody has said the people responsible for the summer route development are clueless in the winter. We know Bristol airport was catapulted into the airport premier league by people who are current in LBA's management team.

But this is the only logical interpretation of what's being implied. The up front investment was £145m, they have spent over £40m in capital investment and restructuring costs and fees to airlines have been discounted by over 25% since 2007 - a further cost of > £5m. The reputation of the airport is massively improved within both the travel trade and the airline industry and its now taken much more seriously by airlines that are looking to expand in the North.

So I'm left scratching my head wondering why having spent 6 years dragging the place up by the bootstraps and having sunk getting on for £200m into the project and when things are beginning pick up in the wider economy, they would choose not to spend a couple of million more on a CAT2 system on RWY14 which (according to some views on here) would radically improve traffic in winter ? It makes no sense, none at all, and it just doesn't fit with the rest of what's going on.

The discussion has done the rounds numerous times I know and before I put the discussion to bed I'd just like to point out that people are only seeking answers which of course a private company is not obliged to provide us. For the time being, it remains the public who are left scratching their heads.

By improving the runway landing aids, the financial benefits to the airport might be negligible or even appear not financially worth while. In the same sense the cost of customer perception is immeasurable but likely to be significant.

Cat II on runway 14 is only one thing we have discussed in great detail on here. We know it would improve the situation during the winter months but the best solution does of course lie on the opposite end of the runway.

Already discussed in great length, but by moving the threshold of runway 32 along with the Cat III ILS that already serves it would improve things enormously. The longer landing distance will enable more aircraft to accept a higher tailwind component during low visibility approaches. It will also enable larger aircraft to carry out autolands without the worry of having a long flare down the slope. This all coupled with the added bonus of having a longer available runway overall without the need for adding concrete. This then becomes a selling point at route conferences when trying to encourage the likes of middle eastern airlines to come to LBA.

You mention the spending costs to date in the region of 200m. It is a significant sum of money which only makes people wonder if Bridgepoint have reached the ceiling of the amount of money they were prepared to spend when they took on the airport. This is totally understandable because like any business it has to be realistic. At the same time as a life long supporter of the airport it is also deeply frustrating.

 

[Aviador]

It probably is ! But lets see how it goes. any help from members would be appreciated. I will post what I see and hear and what you guys and gals tell me will be added to the stats.

By all means, you may start a new thread to record such details.

 

[Tarn Spotter]

I think we may be overstating the winter weather problems.
I have used Lba for years and on a regular basis in the 80's and 90's for business trips on a regular basis to London.
The only times I got diverted from LBA were because of the old night time restrictions at LBA pre the 90's this was the biggest bug bear for the airport. When all my neighbours were signing a petition to stop increased hours I was trying to ensure its adoption.
We now hear today FLYBE are making 500 staff redundant, Ryanair is predicting a £90 million loss this winter, Jet2 are cutting flights, seems to me a sensible decision by all not to experiment with new winter routes from LBA or any other u.k. airport, rather airport made money in summer and buttoned down the hatches in winter.
Disposable income in the u.k. will be reduced for the 4th year running, how do you expand in this climate?

 

[SNOWMAN]

hi tarn spotter
20 diverts in October,thats a lot by my reckoning and the winter is only just starting,
and I am pretty sure lbaspotter and A300 boy will keep us well in formed of the running total as the winter progressively moves on.
regards
sm1

 

[Tarn Spotter]

Think with the St Jude storms and other weather issues all airports especially those in the south, had a bad October, one month means nothing when the weather pattern we know caused the specific issues. October weather patterns over the years has resulted in disruption all over the country, without do a full review, of all airports, not realistic to say LBA results good or bad.
My experience over the years places East midlands first, manchester second, and belfast third in my diversion problems, this in over 60 years, Leeds does not get in the top 5, yet tops my list in respect of usage, you can make figures make any case.
used to fly into Linate Milan every 3 weeks for 17 years, in winter virtually every flight due to land before noon was delayed, can remember one winter when we had 42 days when the fog did not lift, lets put Leeds into prospective.

 

[Tarn Spotter]

Forgot to note that just read the Flybe results and strategic review published today, out of the 158 u.k. routes 61 routes are not recovering their costs and 7 are not recovery direct operating costs, and we talk about increasing routes from LBA, report makes alarming reading for those who hope this airline will survive.
Any airport operator reading this will be ringing his credit control department, you wont be calling in the airline to increase business.

 

[Aviador]

Part of my argument (term of expression really because I'm not arguing) is with improved landing aids at whichever end of the runway comes better reliability. Increase reliability and you gain customer trust. Increase customer trust will increase the number of returning customers and with more customers will come improved yield. All this will lead to better performing routes or bases making new routes more viable for airlines to offer.

I really don't know how much a diversion might cost an airline but imagine if just two diversions a season were to make the difference between a route that breaks even or makes a profit or worse break even or makes a loss?

 

[White Heather]

LBA would have put Cat 2 or 3 on Runway 14 years ago if the technical difficulties could be overcome, and they have been in discussions with the CAA on and off for years. All the way back to the days of restricted operating hours when Gordon Dennison was MD. Changing the touch down point on 32 is probably feasible but expensive and disruptive as it means altering the ILS. And it will probably require planning consent as it was moved to where it is now when the runway was extended, as part of the package of measures to reduce aircraft noise. Moving it back where it was (which I would support wholeheartedly) will result in aircraft being lower on final approach over the Horsforth area. No prizes for guessing where the complaints would come from should such plans be put forward seriously. Lots and lots of unhappy locals and MP's. Perhaps Bridgepoint are trying to avoid rattling too many cages. It could backfire.

When decisions are made as to where to direct funds, Bridgepoint will, without doubt, be considering which investments will help LBA grow fastest. That in turn will increase profits (LBA currently makes a loss) and in time, the 'nice to have' investments that will not necessarily make LBA grow faster, will climb to the top of the list. I would imagine therefore that the terminal and aircraft parking will be top of their wish list, both of which will result in LBA growth. I doubt that moving the touch down on 32 or putting Cat 2 on 14 (if technically possible) will substantially add to LBA growth or repay the investment sufficiently to put such works at the top of Bridgepoint's wish-list. Sadly, the same applies to the runway extension - and Bridgepoint wasted no time in dropping that from their list of priority projects stating clearly that the investment required could not be recovered quickly enough to make it a viable project.

As was pointed out above, Bridgepoint played a significant part in the development of Birmingham, so they know what they are doing. Last time I looked Birmingham was doing very nicely thank you. OK, it is not on the top of a hill and may well have its runway pointing in the right direction (I don't know), but LBA is what it is, and I think that some of us are forgetting the progress made in the past few years and impatience is beginning to cloud judgement. We would all love to see LBA become something it isn't yet, with a longer runway and all mod cons to prevent diverts, but there isn't a company anywhere that would sort out everything at the same time. I have no doubt at all that if Bridgepoint did invest significant funds on the runway and its aids, as suggested, there would be plenty on here that would then be complaining bitterly that they were not extending the terminal, or the apron capacity, or investing in more buses, or extending the walkway.

In case anyone forgets - Bridgepoint owns numerous companies. It has bought all of them with the intention of improving each business and in time, selling at a profit. It doesn't have a bottomless pit of funds and has to decide which businesses are likely to provide the best return for their investments. LBA will therefore be competing for funds with numerous other companies owned by Bridgepoint. The money spent so far has had a very positive affect - over 3.2 million pax, the biggest percentage increase in passengers in the country, (despite the economy) more flights, new based airlines, and recently voted No 1 airport in its category by the very airlines who operate here.