Pakistan International Airlines

[whoshotjimmi]

What are the operational limitations of a 777 at LBA? Is the runway long enough to cope with a full load of pax on a 777? I am concerned that unfavourable conditions could lead to more diversions to Manchester, which would defeat the object.

It is a shame that PIA do not have any A330's. An A330 would be the perfect solution for the route IMO.

 

[tleeds]

In relation to the B777, where can that park? Is it where the A330 normally goes on stands 20 and 23?
If so the airport would have to look closely at whether all the busses are available at that time when it arrives and that they can operate it with losing 2 possible stands for B757/737's.

 

[wawkrk]

The 777-200 requires about the same length of runway as the A310-300. The A330-200, quite a bit more. Max weight I assume will never be required to reach ISB as it is nowhere near maximum range.
Just out of interest, a maximum weight 737-300 requires almost 10,000ft.

 

[Aviador]

What are the operational limitations of a 777 at LBA? Is the runway long enough to cope with a full load of pax on a 777? I am concerned that unfavourable conditions could lead to more diversions to Manchester, which would defeat the object.

It is a shame that PIA do not have any A330's. An A330 would be the perfect solution for the route IMO.

I have posted this in another thread but here it is again.

LBA guide to aircraft types and operational capabilities.
There are a decent number of airlines available that have aircraft that can operate out of Leeds with both unrestricted passenger and fuel loads.

There is a reasonable number of airlines that operate aircraft that can operate with a restricted range without the need to operate such flights with restricted passenger loads.

Here's a rough guide to what the options are....

Little or no restriction with a full load of passengers and fuel to reach the aircrafts maximum range.
Can operate with a full load of passengers with sufficient fuel to reach many destinations.
Can operate with a full load of passengers with sufficient fuel to reach a limited number of destinations.

Boeing B717-200 - 1,670
Boeing B737-600 - 1,690
Boeing B737-700 - 1,598
Airbus A300 B2 --- 1,676
Airbus A320-200 - 2,480
Boeing B727-100 - 2,502
Boeing B727-200 - 3,176
Boeing B737-100 - 2,499
Boeing B737-200 - 2,295
Boeing B737-300 - 2,160
Boeing B737-400 - 2,550
Boeing B737-500 - 2,470
Boeing B737-800 - 2,090
Boeing B737-900 - 2,240
Airbus A300 B4 --- 2,605
Airbus A300-600 --2,332
Airbus A310 -------1,845
Boeing B707-300 - 3,088
Boeing B707-400 - 3,277
Boeing B720 -------1,981
Boeing B757-200 - 1,980
Boeing B757-300 - 2,400
Boeing B767-200 --1,981
Boeing B767-300ER2,540
Boeing B767-400ER3,130
Boeing B747-100 --3,060
Boeing B747-200 - 3,150
Boeing B747-300 --3,292
Boeing B747-400 --2,890
Boeing B747-SR ---1,860
Boeing B747-SP ---2,710
Boeing B777-200-- 2,390
Boeing B777-200ER3,110
Boeing B777-300 - 3,140
Boeing B777-300ER3,120

 

[wawkrk]

Hi Aviador,

Boeings chart for 737-300 at full max with standard atmos 1013mb and 20degC ambient, shows 3000m. I think your other figures more or less confirm my posting.
Is the 737-300 able to reach TFS with full passenger load from Leeds?

 

[Aviador]

I don't know the technicalities with regards to engine specifications etc but I do know that Inter European & Sunseeker Leisure operated flights with the Boeing 737-300 to destinations in the Canaries and Greece. Also, last winter or the winter before Jet2 operated TFS with the Boeing 737-300. I think it may well be a marginal operation with the occasional requirement for a splash and dash tech stop from time to time.

As for the Boeing 777-200, although the aircraft is yet to be seen at LBA, it is well known this particular version can operate out of Leeds Bradford without any difficulty. In fact, the only potential problems are when it's on the ground, such as the above mentioned parking issues. I do believe the aircraft can park on stand 8 but this may remove the availability of taxiway Alpha to other aircraft. This shouldn't be a problem.

 

[User0001]

Some clips of the 777-300 at NCL last summer. These were one-offs for the 75th birthday, but the capacity was sold, so the aircraft wasn't lightly loaded. For LBA it will be more of landing issue than a take-off one.

The landing distance on this runway at NCL is 2125m vs 1916m on 32 and 1802m on 14. The take of distances are pretty much the same give or take 100m.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cSVI1Yytjp4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8ikwII3qfI

 

[oldendays]

I believe the plan for parking a 777 would be half stand 8, half stand 9 with the nose of the aircraft pointing roughtly north north west. This would enable a pushback into "C".
Clearly this would have implications for neighbouring stands and is something which will eventually require a permanent solution.

 

[White Heather]

I also attended the meeting as an observer, I am a student at the aviation Acadamy. Am sure that John Parkin did say about pia expanding in the future I am sure White Heather will clarify this I must also point out assuming it was White Heather that she congratulated the management for pulling this off with pia

Hi Jonathan

You are correct and John did indicate that there would be future expansion, and an announcement in due course (about something). Whether than will be with regard to the introduction of the 777, additional flights or another destination, we will have to wait and see. And yes, it was me and I did say that the Committee should place on record its congratulations to LBIA management on rescuing this operation by PIA. They get quite a bit of grief at the meeting over various issues, and it is important in my view that the committee should be seen to offer congratulations when they pull off something like this. It is clear that PIA were all but gone and as previously suggested, it is rare to see a turnaround like this.

I presume you were sitting at the back with Chris (also of the Support Group)? If you are at the next one, please come and say Hi. It is nice to know that there is another supporter of the airport there - sometimes we feel as though we are the only ones!!

 

[dmrodgers]

Hi White Heather

Is the Airport Consultative Committee meeting open to members of the public as observers or is it by invite only.

 

[Moo2009]

White Heather yes I Was sitting at the back I would have liked to ask questions but was told I could not due to not been on the committee, I think it's a great idea and will hopefully attend again, once again White Heather well done for congratulating the board at Lba

 

[whoshotjimmi]

Aviador - Your post regarding aircraft capability is enlightening, however, it does not appease my mind regarding the suitability of the aircraft to operate from LBA.

PIA do not operate the standard 777-200. They have the 200ER, 200LR and 300ER - of which the 200ER and 300ER are listed in red as only being able to reach limited destinations. Is Islamabad one of those limited destinations?

I am assuming that, since a standard 777-200 is suitable, a 200ER should be able to operate the route but I still believe that unfavourable conditions could render the type unsuitable - more so than the A310. A previous post mentioned landing distance and, certainly, poor weather would pose a problem to that.

With regards to what the announcement could be about, I would be very surprised if additional destinations or frequency were involved. Remember, a week ago we were staring at the loss of PIA altogether and we have already been 3xweekly once before. There has GOT to be a degree of consolidation if we are to keep hold of them long term. Short term consolidation would be to re-establish the route - confidence is bound to have dropped off with recent events and bookings will take an amount of time to return to the same levels. The introduction of a 777 would be a step towards further consolidation and tentative expansion. Anything more than that right now would be highly risky.

 

[Aviador]

With regards to unfavorable conditions, we wont really know until they've tried it. I think only Boeing will have the answers to some of the performance questions we're seeing on the forum.

You do have to remember that the aircraft wont be fully laden on a flight to Islamabad. The Boeing 777(XXX) can operate much further so with this in mind, a flight to Islamabad (3900ml approx), the aircraft may have a full load of passengers and freight but not fuel. The aircraft will be much lighter on take-off as opposed to the same aircraft travelling to Singapore from Heathrow (6739ml)

 

[White Heather]

Hi White Heather

Is the Airport Consultative Committee meeting open to members of the public as observers or is it by invite only.

Off topic

Unfortunately, I believe it is for Committee Members only, plus anyone given permission, and the press. As Jonathan found, only those actually on the Committee can say anything. Observers can only do just that, even if they are members of the committee and are 'sitting back' whilst another member sits up front. My colleague Chris is on the committee, but sat back last Thursday, so could say nothing. Only one member per represented group can take part in any meeting. Of course, individuals can apply to become members of the committee, but need to represent some group, or local area, or an organisation.

Back on topic

The fact that PIA are continuing from LBA would suggest that they are happy that they either have a 777 type that they would be able to operate from LBA, or are planning to acquire such a type, otherwise, I would imagine they would be gone from 11 June and LBA management would not have been able to reach any sort of deal.

 

[michael]

From memory I think it was the tri-axle configuration of the 777 possibly screwing the runway surface that was the issue, not runway length. I assume LBA can't be the only airport like this? Does anyone know if this is still a problem or has it been overcome, forgotten about, or simply put aside to get the deal??

 

[ls27]

I think the small airport over the hill had the same problem

 

[wawkrk]

(From memory I think it was the tri-axle configuration of the 777 possibly screwing the runway surface that was the issue,)

It won't happen with concrete will it?

 

[Aviador]

LBA is now advertising PIA on it's website with a super shot of the A310 taken from what I believe is the tower.

 

[tleeds]

Indeed I think it is Aviador, great shot as well.

 

[Aviador]

I've heard it from a few different sources so far so I'm surprised it's not made it onto here yet but rumour has it that PIA are going to be carrying out a test flight into LBA with one of the Boeing 777 aircraft. If correct it's likely to be one of the usual Wednesday or Saturday flights that gets upgraded for the test flight. I'm sure if any further details become available we'll find out about it.