Pakistan International Airlines

[Jordan-34092]

Don't be disappointed, the flight is still operating!

For how long though? that is the question now.

 

[LeedsPilot]

Don't be disappointed, the flight is still operating!

For how long though? that is the question now.

Exactly

 

[whoshotjimmi]

I don't know what more can be said about PIA as an airline. I think we should look at the positive which is that the flight is still operational DESPITE the airline's poor reputation and, if the flight is discontinued at some point in the future, it has now been proven that the Islamabad link from LBA DOES work and can in the future.

I personally believe, however, that the 777 is one step too far for this particular route. I can't visualise filling it and it would therefore be more sensible to send the 777 elsewhere. It is such a shame that aircraft do exist that would be absolutely perfect for the route (A330, 767, 787) but no airlines that would even be remotely interested in operating the route have such an aircraft, nor, crucially, are they planning on adding these aircraft to their fleet. Obviously, this includes PIA.

I can't help feeling that 1 LBA based 767 with some tidy codeshares and 1 based Q400 could open up the world to the airport. Of course, dreamworld is where I currently sit. Just a few seats down from PIA.....

 

[User0001]

Unless PIA are running their yield management in an oddball way, then 777 capacity shouldn't be too much of an issue. If the A310 has consistently achieved load factors in the high 80% range then inevitably there will be people looking to book but who can't - either because the last few seats are too expensive or because some flights will be fully booked.

At the end of the day, the 777 should reduce seat cost, increase availability of lower price economy seats and help pick up the demand that the A310 can't service profitabily.

The question for PIA is where is this overflow going. Their own services from MAN? Air Blue from MAN? Or are they being picked up by the Middle Eastern connecting services of Emirates, Ethiad and Qatar? The answer to that will be a key one in terms of their longer term committment to the route.

 

[tleeds]

Some very good points have been made here. There is the obvious demand there to support a 777 operation, I think the only thing holding back on the operation is PIA.
The airport HAVE obviously been in communications with PIA on a 777 operation or the B777 equipment would not have been ordered by the airport. I think it will be one of those situations where we will have to wait and see what happens in the future.
The A310 is slowly being withdrawn from the PIA fleet and the only option for PIA is to revert to the B777 or await a new aircraft type to enter the PIA fleet to then carry-on the LBA operation. They are focussing a lot more on replacing their B737's with A320's than actually looking at a more substantial replacement for their long-haul A310's.
The LBA operation is very unstable as we have already seen them attempt to withdraw the route from their operations and the management being able to recoup the operation, I think the airport management will have a lot of work on their hands to hold onto the operation.

 

[Jordan-34092]

The only way this route is going to stay is if PIA decide to buy/lease some 767 aircraft that will start to appear on the market once the 787 hits full production, if not LBA can say good bye to the route and expect passengers to fly from MAN. I think PIA are hoping they can get passengers to travel from MAN with them. If they do go, hopefully Air Blue will take the route, and i have heard a rumor they may be gaining some larger aircraft than the A320 family, which would mean, if they gained the 767, 787 or A330, that they would be able to operate the route.

 

[whoshotjimmi]

I tend to agree with Concorde Lover regarding the aircraft types. However, I think we should discount Air Blue entirely for the time being. They are a small, private enterprise with far more focus on the local market at this time. They are also in the process of acquiring more shorter haul aircraft and are attempting to rebuild themselves following the accident of 2010.

I can't see how 80% load factors on an A310 mean that a 777 would be viable. We are talking about increasing the capacity by 100-150 on every flight. I just can't see that being workable on this route. An A330/767 is, by far, the better option, not only from a capacity point of view but from an operational point of view. With these types, almost all of the operational problems of using a 777 are eliminated.

I think the future of this route lies solely with PIA. And, since they do not have the ideal equipment for the route, I can see it being a contender for closure. I hope that PIA do start sending the 777 and, equally, that it is a huge success. But the voice in my head and the chequered history of the route and the airline tells me that it could be doomed even before it has begun.

 

[wawkrk]

It Is not clear to me what any operational problems might be for the short field performance version of the 777-200 which would also be flying about half maximum range.
The take off charts show it to be almost the same as the A330-200.

 

[Aviador]

It Is not clear to me what any operational problems might be for the short field performance version of the 777-200 which would also be flying about half maximum range.
The take off charts show it to be almost the same as the A330-200.

I thought this was all cleared up looking back through the thread?

The runway length isn't a problem, the aircraft can use taxiway Delta to the new parking apron which can take the largest heavy aircraft.

There are other smaller minor issues that can be resolved. The only thing left that I can think of is the actual PCN limitation of the runway but it is unclear as to whether this is actually a problem given the fact that many other large aircraft have used the runway on a regular basis over the years.

As far as I am concerned this is more about "where there's the will there's the way" than anything else. My concern is perhaps PIA don't have the "will" to make it happen.

Here's a few video reminders to those on the forum that are too young to remember...

[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bis7zQ3PzeE[/video]

[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ug8Abr3ou1E&NR=1[/video]

[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WufaXNku3JU&NR=1[/video]

 

[Jordan-34092]

If the runway is able to handle a 747, along with the taxiways, the 777 shouldn't be much of a problem, the problem is though, is it worth it?. is it worth to send a 777 to LBA to operate the Islamabad service, or will it be worth it to close the route and have passengers go 60 miles down the road to MAN and have them fly from there?. Like i said the only way this route will stay is if PIA decide to acquire a few 767 aircraft second hand, which is unlikely the 767 will be seen in PIA colours as it seems, by the look of things, they are opting to use Fly by wire aircraft, one of the reasons they are trying to replace the 737 aircraft with A320. when the A310 aircraft do go, i can see them perhaps, maybe deciding to lease a few A330 aircraft, but the way it looks at this moment in time, this would more likely be after the LBA route has gone, if it goes anytime soon. Also come to the end of next year PIA are planning to only having 4 A310 aircraft in the fleet, the 4 youngest aircraft they currently fly.

 

[michael]

....amazing how conversations go round in circles............ :crazy: but thanks for the old videos Aviador

 

[whoshotjimmi]

Just to complete the circle....

Wawkrk - PIA do not operate the short field standard 777-200.

Also, I do not believe the ability of getting the 777 off 14/32 was in question. Perhaps "problems" was the wrong word to use. "Limitations" is probably more appropriate. The 777 is pretty much right on the edge of what is possible at LBA. The videos posted by Aviador shows what can happen when you have a plane that is operating near the limits of what is possible - British Airtours off the end of 14 anyone? A 777 would have to be landed spot on each and every time and, with the unpredictable and difficult weather conditions LBA experiences coupled with the comparitively short landing distance (esp on 14) and the apparant inability to use Autoland with this type, the number of winter diversions could be quite high. Parking the aircraft at the far end of the apron is not an issue as such, but is certainly not ideal.

It is a well known fact that, when you operate near the limits of anything, you are bound to encounter problems. The aforementioned A330/767 would certainly remove certain limitations and widen the safety net as well as being a much better match for the route's utilisation.

 

[XEROX]

The 777s have incredible power to weight ratio for such a large aircraft.

Im told Boeing has a setpoint limit of a 6000 ft runway on T7s, heck on a 777-300ER (light load) they did a test flight within 3000Ft...

Bring T7s would be technically possible, but would it be finacially viable - i think not.

 

[aroosh]

Hi all,
Im a first officer on the A310, which as you all know, flies into LBA. Ive seen some really nice shots on A.net and was wondering if there would be anyone spotting this weekend, saturday the 6th of aug 2011, for the PIA flight departure? Im going to be flying the aircraft out on saturday evening and would love to get a few pics, maybe some nice closeups of the cockpit, if possible. Id love to put up a sign or appropriate greeting message to group up that would make a nice picture. I Can be contacted on [email protected]

 

[wawkrk]

I read that PIA had at least 2 of the higher powered engine versions.

The Tristar landed half way down the runway, I was there.
The airport authorities have a film to prove it.
It does not matter how long the runway is if you don't land in the right place.
The first thing the Captain did was to ask to see his union representative.

 

[White Heather]

That is true wawkrk - the Tristar captain landed in front of the terminal, overflying the entire runway extension, on a wet day too, and didn't get the nose wheel down until he was up by the North South Taxiway. I have seen the official photos taken that were used at the enquiry. He got away with it on a technicality.

Aroosh - welcome to the forum, you are very welcome. I suspect you would have been doubly welcome had you been flying a B777 out of LBA on Saturday rather than an A310! I am sure that someone on here might be in a position to take some photos, although it would be a help I would think if the wind was right for you using 32 to land (so you could use the loop before backtracking) and 14 for take off, also so you are directly opposite the best spot for photography, which is across the road from the loop/end of runway 14/32.

 

[Nightflight]

Blooming typical, my 70-300mm lense has decided not to work, it zooms in but wont let me take a picture (error report) shows up in the camera window, but it works ok when not zoomed in!!!!

It would be great to have a video from inside the a310 (cockpit view) on landing and departure, would this be possible??

 

[aroosh]

Sorry folks, no 777 into LBA for the time being, but i know what you mean. Bought one of the last 747's into MAN last year and the folks there turned up in droves to see her.
I flew in on Wednesday and will be departing on Saturday. Ill keep my eyes open and will have a nice hello sign up in the right cockpit window for any spotters who might be around. Might even be able to put their name up in exchange for a good picture.

 

[Aviador]

Sorry folks, no 777 into LBA for the time being, but i know what you mean. Bought one of the last 747's into MAN last year and the folks there turned up in droves to see her.
I flew in on Wednesday and will be departing on Saturday. Ill keep my eyes open and will have a nice hello sign up in the right cockpit window for any spotters who might be around. Might even be able to put their name up in exchange for a good picture.

Hi 'aroosh'

I've an SLR camera and I'd take a picture myself but unfortunately I'm working, but if I see you I'll say hello.

Aviador

 

[White Heather]

Sorry folks, no 777 into LBA for the time being, but i know what you mean. Bought one of the last 747's into MAN last year and the folks there turned up in droves to see her.
I flew in on Wednesday and will be departing on Saturday. Ill keep my eyes open and will have a nice hello sign up in the right cockpit window for any spotters who might be around. Might even be able to put their name up in exchange for a good picture.

Hi Aroosh

Well I have to say it was a nice landing on Wednesday - I was out walking to the North of the airport and watched you and your A310 down the final approach. It looked a bit stormy to the South East where you had just flown from but the landing itself looked good, although I noted you were held in the loop for a few minutes whilst a BMi Embrear landed. I would have happily gone up to the airport to take a pic of you and your 'hello' sign, but the problem is that today, our football team, Leeds United, are live on TV just at the time you are due in!! The other problem is that despite various instructions on how to do it, I have failed miserably with every attempt I have made to post photos on this forum!!

I think though that I am speaking for everyone on here when I say that we hope you, your airline and your A310's (or whatever else you might fly in the future) continue to operate into LBA for years to come and don't disappear back over the hill to Manchester.