TUI Airways

[mullion]

We have had quite a few of the Polish B737 in already in Manchester and I think some other airports also

 

[Bazza]

by moving the piano keys back to the very start of runway32 aircraft would touch down on the flat roughly 200metres down the runway and on the flat section, that would be perfect giving around 2000metres of runway, if only! some cant handle the truth on this forum!

Unfortunately if you did that you would lose the Cat 2 and 3 on runway 32. For cat 2 and 3 you need supplementary approach lights, which because of the terrain have to be inlaid into the runway.

The 32 threshold is what it is I’m afraid.

 

[lbaspotter]

You can tell its quite on here and the is nowt happening at LBA at the moment.
As after reading these last few posts, you do get a sense of Déjà Vu.

 

[mdobuk21]

Yes, all the usual bull xxxx at this time of year

 

[a300boy]

Get used to nowt happening at Lba mdobuk21 its the norm these days so roll on the bullxxxx it will keep us awake during the winter.

 

[mullion]

TBH TUI seem to be retreating to the major airports like BHX/MAN/LGW with a few minors like DSA/EXT

 

[jason1-11]

As we all know, LBA is built on a hill that is prone to low cloud and poor visibility with little defence on Runway 14 and marginal success on 32, but based on far too many variables. That’s not going to change so AMP either does something to improve the runway infrastructure or they leave it as is. Leave it as is = massively distorted passenger Summer to Winter ratio and Manchester to continue to be Yorkshire No 1 Airport and with an ever increasing share.

Using only the metric of actual diversions does not tell the whole winter story. A better way would be something like: no of diversions, cancellations, attributed weather delays in minutes plus the amount of time LBA is in LVP or restricted / downgraded use. One of my analysts would love putting an algorithm together based on that

 

[Aviador]

The only problem with that is you can't include scheduled services by airlines that have already chosen not to operate from Leeds due to its poor winter weather record. It's a hypothetical point but a valid point nonetheless.

 

[Bigman]

I don't know why we don't juts have a thread marked 'Fogbound s@*t tip on a hill with a short runway, rubbish crammed terminal, no transport infrastructure that no-one is bothered about as they are only bothered about Manchester'. This is a TUI thread isn't it??

 

[lbaspotter]

I don't know why we don't juts have a thread marked 'Fogbound s@*t tip on a hill with a short runway, rubbish crammed terminal, no transport infrastructure that no-one is bothered about as they are only bothered about Manchester'. This is a TUI thread isn't it??

Well said Bigman, I couldn't say it any better myself!

Now lets close Leeds/Bradford and move everything to Church Fenton where I'm sure TUi would find an excuse to still not operate into

 

[rmac]

Hope no-one else is reading this!!!! -what an advert. All because one airline with one aircraft have decided to move away.

 

[Severn]

This thread is verging on ridiculous.... serious winter blues happening here! Before the TUI thread goes too far, I just want to put some context to points raised on here.

It has been discussed at great length for as long as this forum has been around. There is clear evidence to suggest there is a need to carry out such work to rectify runway anomalies. The only problem I can foresee is the lack of will to carry out the kind of work necessary to resolve it.

Part of me thinks as much as it would be nice to have a shiny new terminal, getting aircraft on the ground has to be made priority. If coming out of the EU means EU registered aircraft can't base at LBA if that is what has been suggested in the posts above, then LBA really is screwed as it appears to be UK rules that are the stumbling block.

The fact is that LBA is a business and businesses need to make money. The airport currently has airlines happy to operate flights and changing anything to do with the current LBA runway setup will cost incredible amounts of money (assuming the changes are even possible) with no way real benefit to the airport. Airlines are not going to suddenly arrive in droves if the airport had a more runway to use (which is what has been suggested above). The reason why LBA is so quiet in the winter is because its main operator, Jet2, reduces its operations to a fraction of its summer operation. LBA doesn't need to change it's runway, it is stuck with what it's got, up on a hill, and not particularly long. This is similar to BRS, which had 34 based aircraft in summer 2018, showing that if the infrastructure is there (stands, terminal etc) then you can continue to grow.

Not sure who came up with this idea that EU registered aircraft can't base at LBA, that's a new one on me. Either way, airlines will fly from the airports that have the passenger base to support the routes after BREXIT, as they are businesses and also need to make money.

TBH TUI seem to be retreating to the major airports like BHX/MAN/LGW with a few minors like DSA/EXT

Regarding TUI, (and TCX to an extent), they have been caught out over the last couple of years by the enormous expansion of Jet2, plus the likes of easyJet holidays. They have been hunkering down on their current bases where there is either the passengers to support the operation or where there is less competition.

For example, TUIs largest bases are LGW, MAN, BHX and BRS. They're also increased their presence at DSA and CWL for next year neither of which have any Jet2 competition. Reason? They need to make money. Why have a summer base at LBA which has competition on nearly every route from a similar holiday company when you could instead base that aircraft at CWL or DSA where there is no competition in turn making you more money and allowing you to continue next year and the year after. It might seem unfair to LBA folk, but at the end of the day it makes business sense. The airport can do very little about this!

As we all know, LBA is built on a hill that is prone to low cloud and poor visibility with little defence on Runway 14 and marginal success on 32, but based on far too many variables. That’s not going to change so AMP either does something to improve the runway infrastructure or they leave it as is. Leave it as is = massively distorted passenger Summer to Winter ratio and Manchester to continue to be Yorkshire No 1 Airport and with an ever increasing share.

Using only the metric of actual diversions does not tell the whole winter story. A better way would be something like: no of diversions, cancellations, attributed weather delays in minutes plus the amount of time LBA is in LVP or restricted / downgraded use. One of my analysts would love putting an algorithm together based on that

Some have suggested that LBA could just extend the runway by repainting it and taking away the displaced thresholds. Firstly, the landing distance at LBA is perfectly adequate for all current and future airlines to use. It has a system installed allowing airlines to operate in most weather conditions but unfortunately there are times where the conditions are just too bad, which happens at most airports, BRS another great example!

The runway length for takeoff is again not limiting at all to the airlines who want to operate from LBA, plus without extending the runway, you will not get any more takeoff distance out of the current runway.

Regarding repainting the runway to remove the displaced thresholds, unfortunately it doesn't work like that.
If you change where the aircraft is going to touchdown, you will have to change all the runway lighting, the approach lighting, the instrument landing system, the published approaches and arrivals which might mean changes to the airspace that surrounds the airport. It's just not feasible for an airport to change these things, and certainly not down to their lack of will. Again, LBAs runway is adequate for those who want to use it.

 

[White Heather]

makes me laugh how they extended the runway by 600metres but then move the touchdown area down the runway by around 500-600metre and into a downslope, so actually in theory the runway is shorter now than before it was extended lol

That was done as part of the approval given to extend the runway, so that the 'noisy jets' would be higher when flying over the Horsforth area. Moving it back now is what many of us are hoping for, as it would result in a longer landing distance and avoid quite a few of the relatively few diverts we do suffer. Unfortunately, doing so isn't a straightforward issue as it impacts on the ILS, and Lighting. In a nut shell, it is a huge job. I have had discussions on many occasions with the various heads of ATC at LBA and they have all confirmed that it is something they are looking at, but it cannot just be done by re-painting the piano keys. There would be considerable disruption and cost. Not to mention the reaction of Joe Public and their MP's & Councillors if they even tried to do it.

Unfortunately, changing the touch down point on 32 would do nothing to assist departures though. The amount of concrete available would be just the same, so there would remain the existing limitations for runway 32 departures. Only a runway extension AND the touch down point being changed too would resolve the issues, but there are so many obstacles to overcome in doing an extension (such as completely removing the Yeadon Cemetary near the runway end), I cannot see it happening.

 

[LBA8098]

Very well constructed Severn. Thank you.

 

[a300boy]

Lots of good points made ! I believe that if somehow we can find some more landing distance on both runways airlines would see Lba in a different light.
We are blessed with Jet 2 and Ryanair at present with Ryanair keeping winter operations going when Jet 2 curtail their flights and long may that continue.
We were hoping both Tui and Thomas Cook would add to their Lba operations but alas its not to be in the near future at least and the hoped for announcement of a couple of new has not come either so its disappointing but how life often is.
Maybe major expansion will never happen again and we will have to accept that airlines like Tui and others will choose the airport in South Yorkshire which can offer so much more to them.

 

[Deleted member 82]

AMP will no doubt be thinking of shareholders as well as passengers, and shareholders normally come first with those considerations. Investment cost vs return on investment will always out weigh the physical benefit of the investment. So, if it’s cost effective and they’ll make some dollar on it, they’ll do it - if not, we will be left with our limited and marginal offerings

 

[Finger66]

Moving the cemetery would be a "grave" mistake. Where has all this doom and gloom sprung from - oh yes one set of Totally Useless Idiots who don't like LBA. Plenty do like LBA and if others can't compete effectively with Jet2 then so be it. I am not pretending the whole infrastructure doesnt need a massive upgrade in order to obtain substantial future growth but 4m pax a year does point to things not being all bad. So for God's sake let's leave this damn TUI thing alone now please

 

[a300boy]

It’s bad news !
What’s the point of a forum if we can’t duscuss it and have a say ?

 

[Deleted member 82]

The loss of Tui has made people think why it may have happened, it highlights the many limitations of the reality of LBA. Equally 4 million a year is a great achievement that should very much be acknowledged. However, to suggest the topic should be dropped because it is negative, or not what we want to see would be a shame. Healthy discussion irrespective of our many views and opinions should be what we all want our forum to be?

 

[LBA4EVER]

LBA is doing great yes with over 4million passengers a year but I seriously believe it could do so much better and the runway in my view is the main holding back point. Landings would be much improved by moving back the touchdown points but yes I agree takeoff length would be the same, although as an example if you check youtube clips of dep aircraft at Manchester, jet2 and Ryanair 737's often use more runway to takeoff on than most widebodied aircraft, I noticed this when over there in july! I know its not very scientific but just a thought lol