Future Infrastructure Developments

[Heathrowflyer]

From York you can go straight thru to Man airport terminal...door to door. From Leeds it will be train, waiting, bus link on back roads to airport...with luggage and family. Unlike the MAN train you wont be able to pre book tickets so hopefully your journey wont then coincide with the jammed commuter park and ride traffic into Leeds. I get on at Kirkstall Forge regularly and the station airport will no doubt be similar...packed.....with luggage or children it will be tough.

 

[Heathrowflyer]

Sorry...meant to also say, from York to the proposed LBA station it will also be two trains not one.

 

[Bigman]

You will have the hourly York-Leeds via Harrogate that will stop at the new parkway station, so there will be a direct train from York. And let's not forget the increased frequency of LNER Harrogate - Kings Cross trains that will provide through trains from Wakefield Westgate.

 

[rmac]

Just looked up Leeds Station arrivals--- 11:40 from Man Airport Cancelled!

 

[Statto]

I fear the airport has now reached its maximum potential. With no infrastructure in a heavy residential area, with horrendous road links and constant congestion I think we have to be realistic about its location and future growth.

For that to be true, it would mean AMP's decision to buy the airport and their subsequent actions with regard to planning applications etc etc has all been a one-way bet on the road link being built. That would be a very ballsy move when they are basically investing other people's money in the project. I suppose once we see their intentions with respect to the terminal, it will answer the question for us.

As for the terminal itself, I was looking today on the council's planning application portal. It looks like the previous owners were quite canny with the 2008 planning application to build out the terminal front and they obtained a 'certificate of lawful development' for that project. Basically means they dug the foundations and as a result means the planning permission hasn't expired (normally planning permission only lasts 3 years). If this is the correct interpretation, it means there are two valid planning permissions for the terminal. The 'Bridgepoint' plan to build outwards and the AMP plan to extend Eastwards. In combination, that gives the potential for a huge amount of additional space. Personally I think this is much more likely than a proposal that means they have to go back to the council for a new planning permission. That will simply get dragged into a debate about the council's climate emergency and will be lobbied hard against and most likely will take years to get through planning.

 

[LBAYORKIE]

Leeds are again at least one step behind everyone else (again!). The 'Parkway' concept is old-hat passengers expect a rail link direct to the airport. But it looks we are going to have to settle for 2nd best.

Having said this to maximise the appeal of a Parkway there need to be through trains. The line that goes to Manchester airport has trains starting in Scarborough and Middlesborough (may be more) in one direction and from Liverpool in the other and passes through well populated areas picking up and dropping off passengers. Forget this concept of changing at York, or Leeds or anywhere else. Passengers wont be interested, we need through trains.

 

[Statto]

Forget this concept of changing at York, or Leeds or anywhere else. Passengers wont be interested, we need through trains.

That must mean the only people who use the trains to Manchester Airport are those that can easily access one of the stations where the direct services start. And even to catch a direct train from Leeds without changing trains, you'd have to get to Leeds train station by another mode of transport (taxi, bus, dropped off by relative). I'd love to see some actual data on this rather then everyone's own pet theories, but I imagine it doesn't really exist (not in public anyway)

 

[LBAYORKIE]

I am talking about maximising appeal, and a significant number of passengers use it because its a direct service.
I just looked at the service form Middlesbrough, it stops at a number of stations, the main ones being Northallerton, Thirsk, York, Leeds, Dewsbury and Huddersfield, then presumably multiple stations to Liverpool. Huddersfield is a good example, if you lived there and could get a direct train to MAN or change in Leeds what would the average traveller do? Might not be a deal breaker but would certainly influence their decision to fly from MAN.

 

[lbaspotter]

Leeds - Harrogate line served by
"Northern Rail" also connects directly to Knaresborough & York, one would hope all local stopping services on that line would call at the Airport Parkway Rail Station.

I would also hope the new 6x daily Azuma operated Harrogate - London LNER train services will call at the Airport Parkway Station. That would open up direct Cross city service to both Wakefield, Doncaster and beyond.

To be bluntly honest, come on you telling me that a 5 min bus ride from the station to the terminal is too long? Hell it can take 10 mins to walk from the Train station at Manchester Airport over to either Terminal 1,2 & 3with you luggage when them god dam travelators aren't working, and you've still got to go outside to reach T3.

 

[LBAYORKIE]

Most of the stations served on the Harrogate Leeds line are tiny by comparison with those I mentioned and once it gets to Leeds thats it-no one feeding in from Huddersfield and Dewsbury. Last time I looked at the Azuma service to Harrogate there were nothing like 6 a day, in fact I think only one or two and at weird times. I admit Azuma services would be good as they would appeal to passengers in Doncaster and Wakefield so lets hope they increase and LNER are praapred to switch the current only stop at Horsforth to the new Parkway.

 

[rmac]

If people are prepared to use it then it will thrive and better services will ensue all to the benefit of Yorkshire, airport and all.

 

[Bigman]

Despite having direct rail services from virtually everywhere from Crewe up to Glasgow and Holyhead across to Redcar, rail travel is still only accounting for around 15% of the total passenger figures at Manny. You can put all the railway stations in you like, but the vast majority of punters still want to go door-to-door in a car or taxi, especially with all their bags and cases.

Now what we do need in Leeds is more park-and-ride stations to get people into Leeds a damn sight quicker than being snarled in traffic jams. They should build stations at places such as:

• Horsforth Vale where the old Calverley & Rodley station used to be - right next to the ring road so easy for car access + all the new houses at Horsforth Vale – scope for passing loop platforms
• White Rose Centre – already planned – slap bang next to the A653 and close to the M62
• Thorpe Park – already planned – close to the M1 and A63 – scope for passing loop platforms
• East Ardsley – loads of new houses + right near the M1/M62 junction at Robin Hood – scope for passing loop platforms
• Armley Moor – densely populated area, but ample car parking space at both sides
• High Royds between Menston and Guiseley – new purpose-built facility straight off the A65. This would perhaps ease some of the traffic going through Guiseley which is very poor for car parking at the current station

 

[LBAYORKIE]

Just checked again, there are indeed 6 Azumas a day from Harrogate to London and vice versa. Confusion arose because I was assuming all stopped at Horsforth whereas only 2 per day stop there. Parkway is the best we are going to get but its not a modern solution.

 

[Heathrowflyer]

Surely though if airlines see the massive future potential in LBA they'd be investing into the vision that no doubt AMP are selling in to them on a regular basis? Like anything else the shareholders will want to see results and airline growth pretty quick, not a couple of extra flights with KLM? I'd not be surprised if there's staff turn around again in 18 months ....it's all based on ROI.

 

[LBAYORKIE]

Well they need to do something to attract new airlines/passengers. Part of the economics of a terminal building is letting units to retailers and the less the passenger throughput the less likely they are to invest. This is particularly true if its a downward trend over several months rather than just a spike.

 

[White Heather]

Assuming that the parkway station is built, then there is every possibility that rail routes can be adapted so that there are more connections to it than at present. For example, Bradford trains can operate via Leeds to Harrogate and York stopping at all stations along the route. Just because trains run set routes now (such as Bradford to Leeds), doesn't mean they cannot be extended to provide a service to the airport. Such things have already cropped up for discussion at Consultative Meetings. It is the only way to make a Parkway Station more useful for a larger percentage of population.

As for a parkway station not being adequate, it doesn't seem to do other airports that have them any harm at all, and as LBASpotter said, a free shuttle bus from the station to the terminal (which is less than a mile and largely using dedicated roads) is hardly a big deal. As I understand it, shuttle buses would be timed to operate from the Parkway Station at the times trains are due, and at least passengers will get dropped off right outside the door, which isn't the case at Manchester.

 

[Aviador]

Well If LBA management have any sense they will seek to build a new terminal. They will need to be quick. If LCC decline a new terminal then AMP should push ahead with the former Bridgepoint plans that are already approved anyway. One way or another LBA can squeeze out more passengers. If there are no more night time slots some day visits from the Manchester based A300 to med destinations, thoughts?

 

[a300boy]

Hope so but I want more airlines in the mix.

 

[Hendi]

While it was just mentioned above, This night time slot/movement restriction what does the airport have to do to get rid of it? Or cant it? I have no knowledge on this and just wondered is there any other airports with such restrictions in place?

As for the terminal could they build the planned extension to the east then take advantage of bridgepoints old planning and extend it out at the front?

 

[Statto]

Yes - see post 2678 In this thread.

Anything new will need a brand new planning application. The bridgepoint proposal was first lodged in 2008 and it took 3 years for that be approved according to the plans portal. Throw in the pressure the council will come under from the climate agenda and it could be a long slog without any guarantee of success. If ‘Heathrow flyer’ is correct and they’ve got 18 months to deliver results or be sacked then they don’t have that time and won’t take that risk (not that I agree with this assessment). The one negotiation card they have is the existing planning permissions. They could argue with the council that they have permissions extend the existing terminal so that in total it becomes x,000 sq M. If the new terminal proposal is the same size (just a better layout) then the council might be minded to accept that it is futile arguing against it because they’ll just go ahead and implement the extension anyway.

Having looked again at the Bridgepoint plan, my personal view is that this and the eastern extension would add a huge amount of space. That would then take the pressure off of the night time quota because they’d be able to process more passengers in the morning rush and schedule more departures at 7am