Pakistan International Airlines

[Bigman]

So on that basis aroosh, would you think that this rumoured flight seems to be highly unlikely?

 

[White Heather]

Personally, I can't see the point in flying an empty aircraft in and out unless it is purely to test out issues such as the runway, turning loops and apron for size. Surely the key issues which require testing are the 777's performance in landing and taking off from the runway, and PIA can only really test that with an aircraft which is loaded up to a similar degree to what it would be in service, and even then, on the day of the test flight the weather will be different to other days, the temperature different, and the wind direction and the runway in use. So there seems little point to me. They may as well fly a 777 in doing the PK775-6 and see how it goes, but Aroosh has already said that is not going to happen any time soon as far as he knows.

However, it is the intention of the airport and PIA (according to their previous press releases) to develop the route and the 777 has been mentioned within those before. The recent change to NOTAM which includes the 777-200 is not likely to be a co-incidence, so it may happen in time.

 

[a300boy]

An empty flight would be a good idea in my opinion. They could see, as white heather suggested, how the operational items like taxiways, turning loop on the runway airbridges etc even the ils and ,dare I say it, autoland items function. Emirates did so with the A380 before commencing operations at Manchester I believe. I know for a fact Airbus did so at Frankfurt on behalf of Lufthansa, You dont do that with an aircraft full of passengers. The aircraft has a performance manual to calculate the take off weights and runway length required and also the range of the aircraft so they do not need a test flight to determine that aspect. As for Arroosh if his company is like the airlines I have worked for he, as a crew member, will be the last to know about a change of aircraft type on any route as it might affect his employment.

 

[tleeds]

I don't know how valuable the data would be though using an empty aircraft from MAN. As White Heather has said, weights etc. are going to be very different and PIA & LBA need to know whether the aircraft can operate 'properly' and commercially at different load levels and also in different weather conditions.

I wouldn't be surprised if PIA did some testing towards the back end of summer, doing a few 775/6 runs and then also some over the winter period, to contemplate full 777 service from Summer2012. This should supply PIA with the knowledge of different loading figures and also the operation in different weather conditions.

Also as Pilot_Ben said, using a 777 positioning in from MAN is virtually impossible within the 2hours 30mins it is given anyway, adequate tests cannot be done within this time surely.....

 

[User0001]

A300boy, Emirates didnt test any aircraft at MAN. The first landing at MAN of an A380 was the scheduled EK17 service.

The same happened at BHX, the first and only A380 had fare paying passengers on board.

Welcome to the forum user001 and thank you for your first post. We look forward to reading many more from you.

TheLocalYokel (moderator)

 

[whoshotjimmi]

One thing I would like to know is, who would pay for this "test flight"? I cannot see PIA doing that. Emirates and Lufthansa, yes. They have huge resources and massive capital. PIA do not. White Heather will be able to say whether LBA would pay for it or not. I suspect I already know the answer.

 

[bobleeds]

None of the previous large aircraft using LBA - 747, L1011, DC10, B767, A300, A330, Concorde have found it necessary to do "empty" test flights prior to commencing scheduled or charter services. I think it would be highly unlikely for a PIA 777 to arrive on anything but a regular scheduled service.

 

[Aviador]

None of the previous large aircraft using LBA - 747, L1011, DC10, B767, A300, A330, Concorde have found it necessary to do "empty" test flights prior to commencing scheduled or charter services. I think it would be highly unlikely for a PIA 777 to arrive on anything but a regular scheduled service.

I have some old LBA literature dating back to the late 80's which says the management of LBA discussed the credentials of the runway with Boeing experts. I can only imagine similar discussions will have taken place with Airbus Industries so I wouldn't have thought a test flights would be necessary. If PIA does ever bring the Boeing 777 into LBA, the airline may well operate the flight with the chief pilot who could ascertain whether to impose any additional restrictions not highlighted by other sources.

 

[jason1-11]

I have to say that if an airline has to conduct a trial at an airport, then the ops of that aircraft at that airport must must be considered borderline.

Anyway, isn't that why airlines invest a fortune in simulators?

 

[White Heather]

One thing I would like to know is, who would pay for this "test flight"? I cannot see PIA doing that. Emirates and Lufthansa, yes. They have huge resources and massive capital. PIA do not. White Heather will be able to say whether LBA would pay for it or not. I suspect I already know the answer.

Sorry, that is something that I would never be able to find out, because arrangements such as whether LBA pay PIA to conduct a 777 test flight would be treated as 'Commercial in Confidence' and not shared with the Consultative Committee, in the same way that we are not advised about ongoing airline negotiations. We find out when everyone else does, which is the proper way to do things. That is why I tend to pay scant attention to the rumour mill, because I have a feeling that if any airport employee who was party to 'Commercial in Confidence' information, made that information public, they very probably wouldn't be an airport employee for much longer.

However, my guess would be that LBA would offer PIA an incentive to trial the 777. through a reduction in landing fees - for example charging only the rate for an A310 rather than a 777. That is something that they could do and continue to do for as long as their agreement dictates, but I could never see them actually paying PIA.

 

[aroosh]

At the end of the day, what it boils down to is what is the point of conducting a test flight. What are we testing?

IF it were a new type of aircraft, such as the A380, with upper deck boarding and twin aerobridges etc that previously were not in existence, then testing it at a few airports would make sense, but even then once you have established guidelines for that type of aircraft, and learnt what you need to from those test runs, you simply apply that knowledge to the rest of the airports. Its impossible to perform an empty test flight to every airport the first time an aircraft flies in there, nor is it necessary or even practiced. As someone mentioned, even with the A380 into MAN the first flight was a revenue one.
PIA's first 777-200LR delivery flight was a revenue flight, even though it was the first aircraft of its type in the world.

The equipment to handle the aircraft exists, the staff already knows how to do it, and larger aircraft have landed there previously, so there's no question about taxiways etc. Besides things like these are not tested by airlines, the airport authorities approve their airports accordingly and nobody actually brings an aircraft in just to test it. This includes turning circles, taxiways etc, and the most crucial item of all, PCN which determines whether a type of aircraft can use a particular runway/taxiway. Which is simply a formula that divides the load of the aircraft, into the area it spreads it over. For example, a 747 can often land on runways where a 777-300 CANNOT, even if the weights are similar, or the 747 weighs more. This is because the Queen, with her 4 bogies and 18 wheels distributes her weight over a larger area than the twinjet with her 2 bogies and 14 wheels.
Really every airport is already certified to accept the category of aircraft well before the operator flies in there.

As far as takeoff/landing/autoland etc tests go, that just sounds even more ludicrous. PIA (or any other airline for that matter) does not test aircraft performance, nor does it need to. These are all theoretically calculated for LBA or any other airport around the world, with the manufacturer providing software (previously it was all done with graphs and slide rules) that calculate how much runway is required for any given condition.
With a full loaded A310, on a warm day, these become critical as she becomes payload limited for the flight home (which means full (or nearly) tanks) and often the aircraft must depart with a higher flap setting to get off the runway earlier, but none of these things are ever tested. I dont recall PIA doing a test flight with an A310 into LBA, so why would they with a 777?

And whereas A300boy is correct in that alot of times the employees are last to find out whats actually happening, in PIA it goes a step further in that very few people know whats actually happening. So as I have done from the start, I am stating very clearly that this is all simply personal opinion and has nothing to do with the goings on of the airline therefore the T7 may well be coming to LBA, however the fact remains, what it is PIA or LBA would be testing/evaluating by bringing an empty aircraft in, taxing it around and then departing it? Would they be looking for something to go wrong, and if they were, why would PIA risk their aircraft for that?

 

[a300boy]

Aroosh !!
I agree with most of your submissions but as a local guy living next door to Lba having had over 45 years in the business there are issues at Lba which you may not be aware of.
I suspect you are Cat 2 trained but the aircraft you fly is a Cat 3A capable machine as is the A300 I operate and the B777. However all three types would probably have long flare problems at Lba I believe, we certainly do at other airfields with similar topography to Lba and several other operators restrict the use of Cat2/3 capability when operating into Lba, hence my comments. When this discussion began it was suggested an aircraft might position from Manchester between its normal schedule operations. I have no clue as to wether this is possible or desirable to Pia but my response was based on a short and pretty cheap hop across the pennines. Based on the information we have been given on this forum it would seem that it is possible that there are mixed views within Pia on the desirability or acceptability of upgrading the aircraft type used on this service, it is true we have had larger aircraft than the B777 visit Lba before but only doing charters or summer only operations with limited loads in the case of BA Tristars or flights via other airfield with longer runways in the case of Wardairs B747s and DC10s. The numbers in the book take care of all that as I have stated, but in my opinion a trial by the senior fleet captain or training manager might be desirable and feasable to resolve any worries they may or may not have. I only hope we hang on to the flights regardless of aircraft type and the service is expanded somehow in the future.

 

[aroosh]

interesting angle, however long flare training is a standardized part of our CAT2 training and PIA didnt need to test fly the A310 into LBA, so why the 777.
Finally I dont understand what the long flare issue is with the LBA type topography? We operate into places like Khatmandu where which have a much more intense terrain and a higher plateau/table top style runway and I have never encountered or even heard of this issue. Perhaps its restricted to the A300 only. I shall see if I can find out anything about this long flare issue.

 

[jason1-11]

interesting angle, however long flare training is a standardized part of our CAT2 training and PIA didnt need to test fly the A310 into LBA, so why the 777.
Finally I dont understand what the long flare issue is with the LBA type topography? We operate into places like Khatmandu where which have a much more intense terrain and a higher plateau/table top style runway and I have never encountered or even heard of this issue. Perhaps its restricted to the A300 only. I shall see if I can find out anything about this long flare issue.

As the aircraft is certified for CAT3 ops, the airport is as well, are the crew only certified for CAT 1/ 2 approches ?

 

[aroosh]

Airlines choose what minimums they will operate till, and train their crews accordingly. As CAT2 and CAT3 training is an additional training that is not a one time training, but demands renewal, it can become rather expensive and depending on its destinations/type of weather operations, an airline may not find it worthwhile to have crew that are CAT2 or CAT3 rated. For example small regional airlines that operate to airports which are mostly only CAT1/CAT2 rated and can expect CAT1 weather most of the year will not train their crews to CAT2/CAT3 standards as the extra (massive) cost would not be offset in the operation.
However an airline that operates into areas where there is often low visibility and the airports are CAT2/CAT3 will find it worthwhile to train its crews to CAT2/CAT3 minimums.

The aircraft on the other hand are certified by the manufacturer and their rating cannot be changed by the operator. Same goes for the airports. That is an airline can operate an aircraft that is CAT3 certified into an airfield that is CAT3 certified, but because its crew is only CAT2 certified they will only be able to operate to CAT2 minimums and not to CAT3. Likewise for even lower ratings ie CAT1 only trained crew.
The manufacturer/local CAA certifies the aircraft/airfield to a minimum level. After that it is up to the operator to decide how stringent they want to be. They can choose to operate upto the certified minimums, or decide that the airline will keep a further safety margin than is certified. This applied in all areas, including LVP and even to MEL/CDL etc. Often the operators MEL will be more stringent than the manufacturers MMEL.

 

[jason1-11]

So are PIA flight deck crew CAT3 certified on the 777 and the A310?

 

[Jordan-34092]

PK776, LBA - ISB, operate by AP-BEG (A310) has just took off at 20:27 (British local time) nearly an hour late from the actualy scheduled departure (19:30), this will be more than likely down to the aircraft being searched by airport security after 2 other PIA aircraft were diverted due to a bomb scare, one of which was heading to MAN from LHE, the other of which was the same aircraft type being operated, A310. This is the info i have been given so dont shoot me if it is wrong :whiteflag:

 

[Aviador]

Just for information, additional check-in desks in B-hall have now been fitted with a separate system suitable for PIA flights. The new system will enable PIA to use around eight check-in desks and so will enable them to bring the Boeing 777 into Leeds Bradford airport. I think the system Servisair uses is called Sita which is different to the system Jet2 uses which I think is AirKiosk, so things are certainly taking place with regards to preparation for handling the aircraft.

 

[User0001]

Sounds interesting. Another theory I suppose is that assuming the terminal works take place this winter then check-in hall A will most likely be closed whilst they build the new roof. I wonder therefore if hall B needs to made ready to deal with the check-in needs of all airlines whilst this is happening.

 

[Aviador]

Sounds interesting. Another theory I suppose is that assuming the terminal works take place this winter then check-in hall A will most likely be closed whilst they build the new roof. I wonder therefore if hall B needs to made ready to deal with the check-in needs of all airlines whilst this is happening.

This is true but the system has being put in primarily for PIA, so I am told anyway.