Leeds Bradford: Route Development & Rumours

[lbaspotter]

This is an Interesting Interview given by LBA's Tony Hallwood.

Source: http://passport.river.cust.aptusinterac ... 15?page=99 Opens in PDF Format

LBA is looking to introduce new routes to Madrid, Berlin and Sharm el Sheikh, Aren't they all routes we've had and lost in recent years! Gibraltar and Lisbon seem to be also high on that list as well!

 

[Tarn Spotter]

I would be happy for a madrid as a direct route from LBA. Every time a get asked by Jet2, routes I would like always, madrid and Seville.
Would love to fly direct to this last two from LBA, at the moment fly to malaga and get the train to both, easier then crossing the pennines or going to East Midlands

 

[jason1-11]

It’s been a bit quiet of late so how about a debate on the Middle East?

Looking at the MEB3 and Turkish, Manchester handled a whopping 157,232 passengers during the month of March. I would hazard a guess that at least 20 % of those passengers originated from West and North Yorkshire.

Abu Dhabi 36,938
Dubai 78,859
Doha 25,092
Istanbul 16,343

Does anyone think any of the above destinations will appear on the departure board from Leeds within the next couple of years? I personally think not based on how successful the operations have been at Manchester, the thought within the industry and many passengers that Manchester Airport’s catchment area cover Yorkshire anyway and the lack of facilities (both runway and Terminal) at Leeds.

Thoughts?

 

[oldendays]

I think the least unlikely would be a daily Turkish Airlines 738 to Istanbul or Ankara, wherever their hub is, with onward connections eastbound.

 

[dmrodgers]

Emirates still have some A330's in their fleet which would be suitable for our short runway but convincing them to here to our tin shed on the hill could be the stumbling block. Looking at the loadings out of Manchester to Dubai I would say a fair percentage of those travelling are from this area. Direct flights are always more appealing to travellers rather than having to transfer at Heathrow, Schiphol or Istanbul. Sometimes connections can be hours apart making the journey long and tedious.

 

[Bigman]

Maybe Jet2 could do Istanbul and Dubai if they get the rumoured 737 Max series.

 

[lbaspotter]

Interesting snippet regarding the possible Air India service in yesterdays daily email blast from the business desk.

Action taken to boost low number of Indian businesses operating across city region

The first step will be an event hosted by the Indian High Commission in London this summer to bring together Indian businesses already operating in the UK with Yorkshire representatives.

There is also ongoing work to persuade Air India to choose Leeds Bradford Airport as the location for direct flights to the north of the UK. Tony Hallwood from Leeds Bradford Airport was present to give his backing to that medium-term goal, while also highlighting that it can currently be done with just one change, currently the same as Manchester Airport. Read the full arctle here http://www.thebusinessdesk.com/york...mpaign=Yorkshire_27th_Apr_2015_-_Daily_E-mail

 

[Ashwo99]

Interesting snippet regarding the possible Air India service in yesterdays daily email blast from the business desk.

Action taken to boost low number of Indian businesses operating across city region

The first step will be an event hosted by the Indian High Commission in London this summer to bring together Indian businesses already operating in the UK with Yorkshire representatives.

There is also ongoing work to persuade Air India to choose Leeds Bradford Airport as the location for direct flights to the north of the UK. Tony Hallwood from Leeds Bradford Airport was present to give his backing to that medium-term goal, while also highlighting that it can currently be done with just one change, currently the same as Manchester Airport. Read the full arctle here http://www.thebusinessdesk.com/york...mpaign=Yorkshire_27th_Apr_2015_-_Daily_E-mail

Hmmm,interesting, I never knew air India were considering an LBA service, but more routes are never bad, and I presume they will have to use the 787 as the 777 is too big, and to get a 787 in Leeds would be great, of course it may never happen, but it's good to be optimistic.

 

[Bigman]

Nice to see something different mentioned. I would be interested to know how a 787 could perform at LBA, ie performance issues etc.

 

[White Heather]

LBA are adamant that the 787 can operate from LBA without too many issues although they are in talks with Boeing apparently (as I previously reported) to get a better idea of the airfield performance of the type. Tony Hallwood mentioned some 6 months ago at the consultative committee meeting that he was going to try and get Air India to LBA. I couldn't mention it at the time as it was 'in confidence' but now there are articles out there about it with Tony quoted, I guess it is out in the open, so OK to comment.

 

[Ash]

Assuming worst case scenario for the 787-8, which is lower thrust engine variant on a ISA +15C day in the middle of summer, it can be shown from the performance data that from LBA's RWY 14 (the shortest), the maximum take-off weight will be 191,000kg give or take a hundred.

For a 4200nm flight to Delhi, this translates into an OEW + payload of 145 tonnes. The empty weight of the 787 is 118 tonnes which leaves us of a revenue generating payload of 27 tonnes.

Standard weights as prescribed by Indian DGCA, 85kg crew, 75kg for adults.

The AI 787 seats 256 passengers, which would weigh 19.2 tonnes assuming a full load. Crew will be a further tonne totalling 20.2 tonnes.

This would leave the remaining 7 tonnes or so for cargo.
QED :dirol:

So, operationally possible, but commercially? Not something we can tell so easily from the outside...

The figures are all available here for those who want to check: http://www.boeing.com/assets/pdf/commer ... ps/787.pdf

 

[Aviador]

Thank you for the figures Ash. Clearly the route would be possible but there will be little desire to operate flights to India from Leeds with a limited cargo option.

 

[rmac]

I wonder if Icelandair might consider using LBA as an additional UK airport. Birmingham seems to be doing quite well with an increase in weekly flights. The advantage for LBA would be the onward connections to various USA points and given that at present there are no US flights from Leeds an Icelandair flight via Iceland may well prove popular. Their 757's should be able to use LBA okay.

 

[LBAYORKIE]

Given the local Indian community is relatively small, certainly in comparison to the number of Pakistani's I'm not sure how Air India could succeed where Pakistan International failed, even if using more 'appropriate' equipment. A route to India is basically going to rely on point-to-point traffic, as, although Air India do have a reasonable route network no one is going to connect in Delhi (or wherever) in preference to LHR or AMS. Carriers from the Indian sub continent just do not have the appeal of European carriers.

Alan

 

[Aviador]

To be honest, the idea will remain pie in the sky until the airport deals with it's infrastructure problems.

The airport bosses have made their decision and said they do not want to carry out infrastructure work on a whim. The decision by them could be the deciding factor for any would-be airline looking to operate from our region.

Air India may well consider operating from Leeds Bradford Airport but when they've done the maths they will think the route isn't viable without a fully functional cargo operation. This will have been the main problem faced by PIA when they wanted to operate the Boeing 777 from LBA. The aircraft could operate from LBA to Islamabad but with restricted cargo operation which makes the route unviable.

It's a vicious circle for the airport. The only way forward if they want to extend the airports route network into North America and Asia is if the airport changes is way of thinking and spends money on upgrades to enable such operations.

 

[LBAYORKIE]

Since the airport was purchased by Bridgepoint there has been no interest whatsoever in cargo operations. I started my working life working at LBA for a cargo agent in1977 and have been moving cargo through it ever since. Its really gone downhill. I have tried to engage the airport but they never get back to me, total apathy is how i would sum it up. I have to email them every few months just to clean up outside the cargo building because its littered with rubbish and cigarette ends. Until I complained about the toilets in 2012 they hadnt been cleaned for literally years, there was excrement everywhere. It all looks really bad to people delivering in cargo. I would love to know how they expect to get anything out when they put nothing in. Alan

 

[whoshotjimmi]

Hi Ash,

Could you please explain in detail how you got to the figures you did? I have gone over the chart and done the maths numerous times and don't get anything like the figures you are getting. The MTOW I am getting is approx. 195-200 tonnes. Give or take a few tonnes, the main problem I am having is your conversion of kilograms to tonnes.

Air India would be more likely to make a success of a particular route than PIA as PIA is a complete mess with a laughable management structure. However, it is correct that the Indian community in Britain is significantly smaller than the Pakistani community and the range of flights from India to Britain compared to the range of Pakistan to Britain is markedly smaller.

Flights to India also tend to go via Heathrow because the likes of Air India and Jet Airways are affiliated into an alliance or have large code sharing agreements whereas PIA is unaffiliated and has no such agreements in place. The alliances and the population base makes the airlines that fly from Britain to India far more suited to the hub and spoke model rather than point to point.

 

[whoshotjimmi]

My bad - I hadn't added the fuel. I estimate about 40 tonnes of fuel (if I have worked that out correctly). So OEW + payload + fuel = (in my calculations) 195 tonnes. 118 tonnes OEW + fuel at 40 tonnes leaving a payload of 37 tonnes. 20.2 tonnes for people would leave 17 for cargo. How much difference would 10 tonnes make to profitability?

 

[Ray Finkle]

Air India offer some pretty attractive fares on flights to SYD and MEL which with one stop in Delhi could become popular from LBA.

They have one more 787-800 on order which is due to arrive in June. After that it's thought the other 7 Dreamliners will be converted to the 787-900 option to cover high volume and longer distance routes but it could be a couple of years before they start arriving. Also with India regaining it's full classification from the FAA it's possible the focus may well be on the USA for the foreseeable.

What people need to be aware of is Air India don't appear to be your 'conventional' type of airline and talks may well be difficult and lengthy. It took Birmingham five years of hard work to get Air India back and that was with a proven track record. It's great that discussions are taking place and I do hope something positive comes of it but be prepared for a potentially very long waiting game.

 

[ex_crew]

Nicely put Ray , I agree with everything there. Although I stand along side all those encouraging supporters of a mainline operator coming to LBA , personally I feel there is too much focus on the wrong market.

If there was a lucrative gap in the market to serve the Indian continent then I would imagine that the shoes of PIA would of been snapped up very quickly.

Just 45 miles away from the 16th busiest international airport in the world is not going to help , lets also remember , Manchester is raising its game all the time.

Jet Airways are a better contender for new international routes from India , popular by demand , better fleet and more financially secure than the flag carrier.

Here too the future for LBA.