TUI Airways

[whoshotjimmi]

Far from being negative, White Heather, I am being constructively realistic. Thomson are making a clear statement with their flights from the Yorkshire region. Reduction in capacity at LBA and DSA and complete loss at Humberside. Consolidation of their operations to MAN and the expectation that Yorkshire based passengers will travel to Manchester. Indeed, my mother is flying Thomson to Palma in September from Manchester. This is due, in part at least, to the better timings and better choice offered from MAN. The cruise pax are the ones that warrant a Thursday flight from, not only LBA, but from other poorly served airports in the UK.

You have to admit that the apparent reduction in capacity from Yorkshire is not exactly a shot in the arm for the region. If Thomson were serious about the airport, I would expect at least something along the lines of what Exeter airport have. Even Norwich has more Thomson activity. My feeling is that Thomson clearly believe their customers are happy travelling to Manchester. And, since Manchester is relatively easy to get to, they would see no reason to change that.

 

[Sherburnflyer92]

Jet2, and Ryanairs local "ONLY LOW FARE AIRLINE" (according to a bill board near sheepscar) should and probably be able to pick up any capacity.

Personally i believe it's not just that MAN is across the pennines. LBA has indeed reached capacity, but had TOM had a based a/c ryanair would have had a lesser pressence in LBA or maybe more destination based a/c operating the flights. Anyway, i think TOM has the wrong a/c to commit to it's local operations, with many been near to a MAJOR operation. I think they need a 737-300 sized aircraft. A319 or 737-700 for TOM'S operation into places such as DSA, LBA, HUY, MME. 2 737-700 would probably be right for LBA considering they'd need to compete with not only LS, but TCX and FR on MANY routes (well FR to Spain & Portugal).

 

[whoshotjimmi]

I do not think they would need to worry about competing with FR. After all, if people want a package holiday, they would not choose FR. Also, I think if an aircraft were to be placed at LBA, anything smaller than a 738 (A320's are being phased out by Thomson) would be too small for certain destinations. I do not think they would have a problem filling a 738 providing they had the correct destinations from LBA.

The point, however, is moot as LBA does not have the capacity to accept them based, as has been discussed. I would be far happier if one or two more routes were operated weekly on W patterns or with foreign based a/c. At least then we could say that Thomson had a little more belief in LBA and then we COULD talk about the possibility of future expansion. As it currently sits, we can't.

 

[User0001]

Why doesn't LBA have capacity to accept them as based?

 

[whoshotjimmi]

To my knowledge, next summer, all overnight parking spots are taken. There is then the issue of terminal capacity.

 

[User0001]

I was not under the impression that was the case in terms of parking and presumably the terminal plans that have been tendered for and that are currently awaiting council ratification will deal with any terminal capacity issues.

 

[tleeds]

As whoshotjimmi has expressed we cannot assume TOM will immediately start operations from LBA. The current parking stand problem that the airport has is currently hindering on their expansion. I think that by summer 2012 possibly into the winter of 2012/13 we will be seeing 3-4 new stands along TwyN.

I know that the airport are very stretched financially, but the airport will have to look upon this as a definite problem that needs a solution, quick. Jet2 seem a lot keener for next summer as they are increasing their aircraft presence, but if LBA want; More FR aircraft and routes, TCX to upgrade their aircraft and a larger TOM operation, then this is a problem they simply cannot afford to ignore.
Obviously the airport would need more buses as well to transport passengers from the terminal to the new aircraft stands.

Anyway back to TOM. TCX just suddenly decided to commence operations in 2007(?) however, using the BMI A320 and they had no current flights when they suddenly decided to start. I think that TOM could easily increase flights on more 'W' patterns, but there is always that cloud that covers TOM's commitment to LBA in the first place....?!

 

[lbaspotter]

By the way the airport currently has about 3 stands spare for Boeing 737/Airbus A320 sized aircraft this summer 2011 season.

As things stand next summer 2012 there will be 2 spare. That's off course if Jet2 bring in the extra 11 based aircraft as has been mentioned a lot off late. Now If ryanair decided to base a 3rd Boeing 737 aircarft well that would make LBA short of stands, With just 1 spare over night stand left.

 

[lbaspotter]

By the way i understand that (tui group/Thomson Holiday) don't regretting leaving there Leeds/Bradford base for there new base down the road at Doncaster-Sheffield one bit.

They have no intention to base aircraft at LBA. As the plan stands at the minute, LBA may not see any Thomson aircraft after this winter season. I understand that they are looking for another operator to fly the Corfu route next summer season while Air Europa are confirmed to be doing the Palma service.

Currently, the Northern Market for Thomson Holidays is being consolidated as much as possible to Manchester. They want to evade any financial issues as they are about to corner a part of the market that they have been trying years to do, so, that means MAN/LGW and to an extent EMA/BHX/NCL/GLA will benefit.

 

[pug]

By the way i understand that (tui group/Thomson Holiday) don't regretting leaving there Leeds/Bradford base for there new base down the road at Doncaster-Sheffield one bit.

I dont doubt that, however the way they are scaling back at DSA suggests to me tough trading condityions across the board for the traditional tour operators and in house airlines.

Perhaps off topic slightly, but could this be the begining of the end of the traditional tour operators in favour of more dynamic low-cost airlines, such as the formula Jet2 have adapted?

 

[White Heather]

I think that the 'beginning of the end' started a few years ago now. There is no doubt that the onset of LOCO airlines reduced the demand for traditional package holidays and removed much of the need for 'seat only bookings' at the same time. I used to book 'seat only' until Jet2 came along and I haven't done so since. I am sure I am not alone.

TOM at LBA would be a 'nice to have' but right now is not the be all and end all for LBA management. I know for a fact that they want TOM back at LBA, but equally they value the Thomas Cook operation and don't want to prejudice their presence at LBA. We lost our base to DSA, courtesy of lower landing fees and basically having the run of the place, and it seems that they are now cutting back yet further down at Donny in favour of MAN. This is obviously their business model and if so, we can probably forget TOM basing at LBA in the forseeable future. Personally I don't care which airline operates from LBA - in fact given previous tendencies of Thomson to divert at the drop of a hat, I would be happy enough if other operators stepped in.

I am sure that in the current market, both Jet2 Holidays and Thomas Cook are able to operate more seats out of LBA than they probably would do if Thomson had a greater presence, so it could be a case of losses equalling gains. LBA need to first of all hang on to what they have got, and secondly concentrate on their LOCO and scheduled operations. The charter market has always been like this and this isn't the first time it has consolidated back to larger airports - it happens to some degree every time the projected booking numbers fall. Given the number of people about to lose their jobs, I am not surprised at what is happening in the slightest. I imagine that DSA management will be far more concerned than LBA at the way things are going.

 

[wawkrk]

Heather will correct me if I am wrong but I seem to remember Thomson peaked at more than 20 flights per week a few years back before they started to decline.It seems to me that their business model is past it's sell by date since the times when your aunt and uncle mum and dad always booked with Thomson and were staunchly loyal customers.
Jet2 have taken advantage of this decline with spectacular results.

 

[White Heather]

You are not wrong wawkrk - in the days when it was Britannia Airways, they/Thomson were the major tour operator from LBA, closely followed by Intasun. They had a based 737-200 for many years and then a 757 base and towards the end, during May and June they replaced the 757 with a 767-200. Then, as soon as they opened their base at DSA they were all but gone. I don't think it would have been that way though had Thomson not been taken over by Tui. They business model was completely different and with them, it seems to be a case of an airport either being 'in' or 'out' of their plans. Sadly, LBA is in the latter category, at least for now.

 

[Aviador]

It was around the same time that Charter airlines were beginning to feel the pain of the low cost airlines encroaching on their business. I seem to remember Thomson's actually saying they would quit some regional airports that wouldn't bring down charges.

If I remember rightly, at that time, Leeds was one of these high cost airports and by the time the airport had woken up and reduced it's charges, the deal with Peel at Doncaster airport has already been signed. So far as I can remember, the last year with Thomson basing at LBA was with vastly reduced charges but unfortunately it wasn't enough to keep them.

(I think it is important to mention at this point that this was all hear-say at the time but it all 'rings true' looking back on it today.)

 

[wawkrk]

I am fairly certain charter flights in total peaked at 42 per week. I think Jet2 alone have been up to 3 times this number.

 

[Malaga]

This is what I have archived for the year 2000 charter operations from LBA. There are 110 records! Similar until 2003 then downhill fast after that.

Regards Malaga

AIRPORT VIA A D TIME FLIGHT DAYS OPERATOR AIR START FINISH F
LARNACA D 0900 AIH371 1------ AIRTOURS 320 01/05/2000 05/11/2000
LAS PALMAS A 1715 BY295B 1------ BRITANNIA 738 01/05/2000 05/11/2000
LAS PALMAS D 0730 BY295A 1------ BRITANNIA 738 01/05/2000 05/11/2000
REUS A 1435 AIH324 1------ AIRTOURS 320 05/06/2000 05/11/2000
PALMA D 1845 BY071A 1------ BRITANNIA 738 01/05/2000 05/11/2000
GRONINGEN D 2130 AIH359 1------ AIRTOURS 320 01/05/2000 05/11/2000
LARNACA A 1955 AIH372 1------ AIRTOURS 320 01/05/2000 05/11/2000
PALMA D 0035 AIH395 1------ AIRTOURS 320 01/05/2000 05/11/2000
PALMA A 0655 AIH396 1------ AIRTOURS 320 01/05/2000 05/11/2000
REUS D 1550 AIH323 1------ AIRTOURS 320 05/06/2000 05/11/2000
ALICANTE A 2110 BY268B -2----- BRITANNIA 738 01/05/2000 05/11/2000
PALMA A 0345 AIH360 -2----- AIRTOURS 320 01/05/2000 05/11/2000
PALMA A 0050 BY071B -2----- BRITANNIA 738 01/05/2000 05/11/2000
TENERIFE (S) D 1540 AIH377 -2----- AIRTOURS 320 01/05/2000 05/11/2000
ALICANTE D 1445 BY268A -2----- BRITANNIA 738 01/05/2000 05/11/2000
GERONA A 1315 BY506B -2----- BRITANNIA 738 01/05/2000 05/11/2000
ALICANTE D 0750 AIH373 -2----- AIRTOURS 320 01/05/2000 05/11/2000
GERONA D 0740 BY506A -2----- BRITANNIA 738 01/05/2000 05/11/2000
MALTA A 1105 KM5202 -2----- AIR MALTA 737 01/05/2000 05/11/2000
MALTA D 1205 KM5203 -2----- AIR MALTA 737 01/05/2000 05/11/2000
ALICANTE A 1425 AIH374 -2----- AIRTOURS 320 01/05/2000 05/11/2000
ARRECIFE A 1630 BY423B --3---- BRITANNIA 738 01/05/2000 29/10/2000
TENERIFE (S) D 1750 BY241A --3---- BRITANNIA 738 01/05/2000 29/10/2000
TENERIFE (S) A 0120 AIH378 --3---- AIRTOURS 320 01/05/2000 29/10/2000
ARRECIFE D 0710 BY423A --3---- BRITANNIA 738 01/05/2000 29/10/2000
BODRUM D 1845 AIH367 --3---- AIRTOURS 320 01/05/2000 29/10/2000
FUERTEVENTURA A 1720 AIH370 --3---- AIRTOURS 320 01/05/2000 29/10/2000
FUERTEVENTURA D 0800 AIH369 --3---- AIRTOURS 320 01/05/2000 29/10/2000
ARRECIFE D 1000 AIH365 ---4--- AIRTOURS 320 01/05/2000 29/10/2000
FARO A 1320 AMM595D ---4--- AIR 2000 752 01/05/2000 29/10/2000
FARO D 1420 AMM595C ---4--- AIR 2000 752 01/05/2000 29/10/2000
ARRECIFE A 1935 AIH366 ---4--- AIRTOURS 320 01/05/2000 29/10/2000
TENERIFE (S) A 0345 BY241B ---4--- BRITANNIA 738 01/05/2000 29/10/2000
PALMA A 1250 BY277B ---4--- BRITANNIA 738 01/05/2000 29/10/2000
MALAGA D 1425 BY368A ---4--- BRITANNIA 738 01/05/2000 29/10/2000
BODRUM A 0425 AIH368 ---4--- AIRTOURS 320 01/05/2000 29/10/2000
GERONA D 2100 AIH363 ---4--- AIRTOURS 320 01/05/2000 29/10/2000
MALAGA A 2105 BY368B ---4--- BRITANNIA 738 01/05/2000 29/10/2000
PALMA D 0645 BY277A ---4--- BRITANNIA 738 01/05/2000 29/10/2000
MALAGA A 1400 AIH358 ---4--- AIRTOURS 320 01/05/2000 29/10/2000
MALAGA D 1515 AIH357 ---4--- AIRTOURS 320 01/05/2000 29/10/2000
CORFU D 0625 BY089A ----5-- BRITANNIA 738 01/05/2000 29/10/2000
PALMA D 2330 BY397A ----5-- BRITANNIA 738 01/05/2000 29/10/2000
GERONA A 0240 AIH364 ----5-- AIRTOURS 320 01/05/2000 29/10/2000
{BOURNEMOUTH} A 1500 EAF070P ----5-- EUROPEAN AIR CHARTER 732 22/05/2000 28/05/2000
MAHON D 1605 JMC599 ----5-- JMC 752 17/07/2000 29/10/2000
MAHON A 1310 JMC598 ----5-- JMC 752 17/07/2000 29/10/2000
IBIZA A 2205 BY488B ----5-- BRITANNIA 738 01/05/2000 29/10/2000
IBIZA D 1545 BY488A ----5-- BRITANNIA 738 01/05/2000 29/10/2000
MAHON D 1605 JMC599 ----5-- JMC 752 01/05/2000 18/06/2000
TENERIFE (S) D 2235 IWD3336 ----5-- IBERWORLD 320 17/07/2000 30/07/2000
TENERIFE (S) D 2235 IWD3336 ----5-- IBERWORLD 320 31/07/2000 29/10/2000
MAHON A 1310 JMC598 ----5-- JMC 752 01/05/2000 29/10/2000
CORFU A 1420 BY089B ----5-- BRITANNIA 738 01/05/2000 29/10/2000
TENERIFE (S) D 2325 FUA1354 ----5-- FUTURA 738 01/05/2000 29/10/2000
TENERIFE (S) A 2135 IWD3335 ----5-- IBERWORLD 320 31/07/2000 29/10/2000
{BELFAST (I)} D 2035 IWD3335P ----5-- IBERWORLD 320 19/06/2000 02/07/2000
TENERIFE (S) A 2135 IWD3335 ----5-- IBERWORLD 320 01/05/2000 18/06/2000
MAHON A 1310 JMC598 ----5-- JMC 752 01/05/2000 18/06/2000
TENERIFE (S) A 1950 IWD3335 ----5-- IBERWORLD 320 19/06/2000 02/07/2000
TENERIFE (S) D 2235 IWD3336 ----5-- IBERWORLD 320 01/05/2000 18/06/2000
TENERIFE (S) A 2300 FUA1353 ----5-- FUTURA 738 01/05/2000 29/10/2000
MAHON D 1150 FUA1412 ----5-- FUTURA 738 01/05/2000 29/10/2000
IBIZA D 2230 AIH389 ----5-- AIRTOURS 320 01/05/2000 29/10/2000
MAHON A 2105 AIH392 ----5-- AIRTOURS 320 01/05/2000 29/10/2000
MAHON D 0630 AIH391 ----5-- AIRTOURS 320 01/05/2000 29/10/2000
MAHON D 1605 JMC599 ----5-- JMC 752 01/05/2000 29/10/2000
GRONINGEN D 1600 EAF2070 ----5-- EUROPEAN AIR CHARTER 732 22/05/2000 28/05/2000
{BELFAST (I)} A 2135 IWD3336P ----5-- IBERWORLD 320 17/07/2000 30/07/2000
MAHON A 1000 FUA1411 ----5-- FUTURA 738 01/05/2000 29/10/2000
PALMA D 2315 AEA215 ----5-- AIR EUROPA 733 01/05/2000 29/10/2000
TENERIFE (S) D 1300 AEA189 ----5-- AIR EUROPA 738 01/05/2000 29/10/2000
TENERIFE (S) A 1210 AEA188 ----5-- AIR EUROPA 738 01/05/2000 29/10/2000
PALMA A 2225 AEA214 ----5-- AIR EUROPA 733 01/05/2000 29/10/2000
LAS PALMAS D 2230 AIH383 -----6- AIRTOURS 320 01/05/2000 29/10/2000
PALMA A 2105 AIH386 -----6- AIRTOURS 320 01/05/2000 29/10/2000
IBIZA A 0445 AIH390 -----6- AIRTOURS 320 01/05/2000 29/10/2000
FARO D 1530 VB110 -----6- MAERSK AIR 735 15/05/2000 29/10/2000
PALMA D 1445 AIH385 -----6- AIRTOURS 320 01/05/2000 29/10/2000
PALMA D 1445 AEA259 -----6- AIR EUROPA 752 01/05/2000 29/10/2000
PALMA D 2250 AEA174 -----6- AIR EUROPA 762 01/05/2000 29/10/2000
ALICANTE A 1645 AIH5108 -----6- AIRTOURS 320 01/05/2000 29/10/2000
ALICANTE D 1745 AIH5107 -----6- AIRTOURS 320 01/05/2000 29/10/2000
MAHON A 2005 BY076B -----6- BRITANNIA 738 01/05/2000 29/10/2000
MONASTIR A 2355 LBT864 -----6- NOUVELAIR 320 26/06/2000 08/10/2000
PALMA A 2150 AEA173 -----6- AIR EUROPA 762 01/05/2000 29/10/2000
MAHON D 1400 BY076A -----6- BRITANNIA 738 01/05/2000 29/10/2000
PALMA A 1345 AEA258 -----6- AIR EUROPA 752 01/05/2000 29/10/2000
ALICANTE D 0700 AIH387 -----6- AIRTOURS 320 01/05/2000 29/10/2000
ALICANTE A 1335 AIH388 -----6- AIRTOURS 320 01/05/2000 29/10/2000
IBIZA D 2140 BY146A -----6- BRITANNIA 738 01/05/2000 29/10/2000
MONASTIR A 2245 LBT864 -----6- NOUVELAIR 320 22/05/2000 25/06/2000
MONASTIR D 2345 LBT865 -----6- NOUVELAIR 320 22/05/2000 25/06/2000
REUS A 1220 BY468B -----6- BRITANNIA 738 01/05/2000 29/10/2000
REUS D 0640 BY468A -----6- BRITANNIA 738 01/05/2000 29/10/2000
FARO A 1430 VB109 -----6- MAERSK AIR 735 15/05/2000 29/10/2000
PALMA A 0535 BY397B -----6- BRITANNIA 738 01/05/2000 29/10/2000
MALAGA D 0910 AIH381 ------7 AIRTOURS 320 01/05/2000 29/10/2000
GRONINGEN A 1815 EAF2071 ------7 EUROPEAN AIR CHARTER 732 29/05/2000 04/06/2000
TENERIFE (S) A 2330 BY476B ------7 BRITANNIA 738 01/05/2000 29/10/2000
TENERIFE (S) D 1335 BY476A ------7 BRITANNIA 738 01/05/2000 29/10/2000
{BOURNEMOUTH} D 1900 EAF207F ------7 EUROPEAN AIR CHARTER 732 29/05/2000 04/06/2000
PALMA A 1205 BY365B ------7 BRITANNIA 738 01/05/2000 29/10/2000
LARNACA D 0055 LBT865 ------7 NOUVELAIR 320 26/06/2000 08/10/2000
LAS PALMAS A 0800 AIH384 ------7 AIRTOURS 320 01/05/2000 29/10/2000
MALAGA A 1535 AIH382 ------7 AIRTOURS 320 01/05/2000 29/10/2000
IBIZA A 0410 BY146B ------7 BRITANNIA 738 01/05/2000 29/10/2000
FARO D 1645 AIH379 ------7 AIRTOURS 320 01/05/2000 29/10/2000
FARO A 2320 AIH380 ------7 AIRTOURS 320 01/05/2000 29/10/2000
PALMA D 0600 BY365A ------7 BRITANNIA 738 01/05/2000 29/10/2000

 

[Aviador]

Thanks for that 'Malaga' and congratulations on making your first post! :good: The introduction of the Boeing 737-800 into LBA was a huge flop for Thomson's. At that time the airline had not approved the aircraft for CATIII approaches at Leeds Bradford Airport. I seem to remember a shocking year so far as the weather was concerned and LBA lost numerous BY flights because of fog.

(Just for future reference, if you ever make a long post like that again it's always worth doing a right click and copy just in case there's ever a problem submitting your post.)

 

[a300boy]

The B737-800 they used could not land at Lba on a wet runway either under uk rules, so this meant even more diversions. I wonder if that is still the case and if Jet 2 will have problems if they base 800s at Lba.

 

[LeedsPilot]

The B737-800 they used could not land at Lba on a wet runway either under uk rules, so this meant even more diversions. I wonder if that is still the case and if Jet 2 will have problems if they base 800s at Lba.

I was personally never aware of this restriction but it was definitely lifted as many B738's have landed in wet conditions at LBA.

 

[tleeds]

Thomson landed in many wet conditions last winter with their temporary based B737-800. Ryanair are another prime example, their's are based all year round, whatever the weather.